How long did it take to see changes?

[shikantazen]

All long time sitters,

How long did it take for you to see concrete changes in your life with practice? Changes like becoming kinder, being able to handle emotions better, recovering from disappointments better etc...

(if it applies) Also how many years of sitting did it take before you had the body mind dropping off or awakening

This is a genuine question, please don't throw zenny answers like "the moment I first sat zazen" etc...

I understand we shouldn't be looking for results and zazen is good for nothing and practice is enlightenment etc..; but just trying to see what the real numbers are for folks here.

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Jakuden]

I sat on and off for many years on my own, and the little I knew of Zen practice helped me struggle through many a crisis. (Barely.)
I found Treeleaf eventually. After a year here, I was brave enough to try Jukai.
After doing Rohatsu here, I was brave enough to try a Sesshin at a Monastery.
After a couple more Sesshin, and two years here, I realized that dedicated effort toward Zen practice was truly the way to finally have some peace.
Then I shaved my head, and gave completely over to the Precepts. I follow them and try to do as little harm as possible, help others and go gently through the world. I can't say it's all equanimity all the time... but a "mind tantrum", as I call it, when life is not what is wanted, is just a mind tantrum now--it's annoying and uncomfortable, but it passes fairly quickly, and I do not add to mine and others' suffering by acting or speaking upon it. Where am I on the path, and when did these changes exactly happen? I have no idea!

Apologies for the length.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

All long time sitters,

How long did it take for you to see concrete changes in your life with practice? Changes like becoming kinder, being able to handle emotions better, recovering from disappointments better etc...

(if it applies) Also how many years of sitting did it take before you had the body mind dropping off or awakening

This is a genuine question, please don't throw zenny answers like "the moment I first sat zazen" etc...

I understand we shouldn't be looking for results and zazen is good for nothing and practice is enlightenment etc..; but just trying to see what the real numbers are for folks here.

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Hah, I will start off and say ... "the moment I first sat zazen" because it is true! I was in law school, truly depressed, miserable, thinking too much (mostly dark thoughts), worried about the future, sad about the past, unhappy with the present, and learning in law school to argue and debate everything! Then, somebody said at the university sitting group, "put it all down for a time, and just sit." No past, no future, no judgement, no debate. I felt the difference immediately.

Then, I started to notice small differences in me when crisis times came in life (my mother died, I had a sickness, there was bad news at work). I simply did not react to the situations in the same depressed, frustrated, extreme ways as before, and felt that I was being wiser. Please see my flat tire story for one example (below). My cancer three years ago was another BIG confirmation of this:

Profound dropping bodymind seems to happen sometimes in Zazen, sometimes in other activities, but much more useful really is what I call a "softening" and interflowing of the hard border and friction/conflict between the self and the "not my self" world. That is what I am describing above and in my flat tire story. The world disappoints sometimes, and yet the friction and disappointment softens or drops away. Time is not so important, there is a wholeness and flowing unity to the world and my life, which are not apart at all, all flowing together as one.

But this is just my story, and I think that 100 people here will have 100 stories to tell.

(Sorry, a little long here).

Gassho, Jundo



===========

One of the great "rules of thumb" of how Zen Practice is impacting our life is when the "Dharma hits the fan" (** maybe I just did what I asked Bayamo not to do. ), when we are faced with some life disaster, the forest fire that one of our Treeleaf priests faced this week in which she just grabbed the animals and left the house for a time, the cancer diagnosis I had a couple of years ago, the small stuff life traffic jams and unfair situations at work, someone cuts in line in front of us, the political situation in the world seems so ugly, etc. etc. We just don't react the same as before.

I have told the following story 100 times, so it is okay for the old folks to jump ahead:

... It is about two flat tires I had years apart, both on rainy days when I was late for an appointment, wearing a nice suit. In the first case, I had only been practicing Zen and Zazen a short time. POP! went the tire, down came the rain, I was soaked and late … and just miserable about it. I hated the tire, I hated the rain, I hated missing my appointment, I hated the busy street and my soaking wet suit. I changed the tire, but I hated myself. I think that I actually kicked the flat tire, stubbing my toe and making myself even more miserable.

Some years later, almost the same scene: POP! went the tire, down came the rain, I was soaked and late … However, this time, the tire was the tire, and the rain fell like rain. I noticed that the drops were beautiful. I was soaked, but it was a cause to laugh. I was late, but time did not seem so important, and I even sensed a certain timelessness reminding me not to rush through life. The busy street was the one place to be in that moment. I changed the tire, I was content with myself. I remember quite clearly offering a bow of gratitude to the flat tire and the rain.

In both cases, I was just as soaking wet, just as late. In both cases, I changed the tire and got on my way. In both cases, I missed my appointment, and was not able to reschedule.

But in one case, it was terrible. And in one case, it was fine, even nice. Beautiful in fact.

So, I hope you find your switch and learn to use it.

[Onka]

I noticed I was able to sit WITH pain better quite early as that was definitely my goal, yep goal. Around 6 months later I found Treeleaf and Jundo's focus on Shikantaza AND Buddhism in general that my partner noticed positive changes particularly in regards to humility. I liked these changes in me too and have embraced Zen Buddhism practice to the point where I want to be a student AND practitioner. Apologies for an extra sentence but it's fair to say that my humility is being tested at the moment as I try to shed attachment to identities but I have faith in the process.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today/Lent a hand

[Inshin]

I noticed I was able to sit WITH pain better quite early as that was definitely my goal, yep goal. Around 6 months later I found Treeleaf and Jundo's focus on Shikantaza AND Buddhism in general that my partner noticed positive changes particularly in regards to humility. I liked these changes in me too and have embraced Zen Buddhism practice to the point where I want to be a student AND practitioner. Apologies for an extra sentence but it's fair to say that my humility is being tested at the moment as I try to shed attachment to identities but I have faith in the process.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today/Lent a hand

I think having faith is key, it is nice to notice some "progress" as this reinforces the faith but it is key to have faith even in the darkests of moments. Maybe especially in the darkest moments as they give the opportunity to "give up" to God/Bhudda /Dharma and let the Way be as it is.
Gassho
Sat

[Tairin]

I am not intending on being zennie by saying “when I first decided to sit Zazen”. For me it was really about needing to make a change in my life. My decision to take up this practice was the first step in making changes. From there it has been a progression. I’d say the next really solid step was my decision to under take the Precepts and fully commit to this practice.

Basically I am saying that I was the catalyst for change. Zen has been the vehicle.

Sorry for the extra sentences


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Risho]

(if it applies) Also how many years of sitting did it take before you had the body mind dropping off or awakening

I understand we shouldn't be looking for results and zazen is good for nothing and practice is enlightenment etc..; but just trying to see what the real numbers are for folks here.

The dropping off of body and mind isn't something out there - when you sit and find the right balance point - if you are sitting lotus, half lotus, burmese - these are all balance postures. Once you sit and things just sort of drop and there are no thoughts - the rub is that if you realize you are sitting like this you just started thinking again. hahhhaahah

Zazen isn't seeking this fixed state - it's cyclical. Thought - no thought - thought - no thought --> over and over that is non-thinking. Now - after a lot of this you realize that the thought parts just rise up - this is what the mind just does; you stop believing those things; you stop being led around by those, giving them energy - and they go away. This is easier to do with some thoughts than others. Now this is nothing new - this has been said many times by many practitioners; however, once you drop those thoughts - it's really something. It takes time - and time without doing this for anything.

It took me a long time to realize "zen is good for nothing"; it is; just sit, really just sit -> and you may notice some things change. Because, and this is why it's actually fun, your practice is your practice; it's your path of discovery.

But to keep it going, you have to just drop any of these thoughts of whatever it is - just sit, and what happens will really happen of its own accord.

Now - from my personal experience: it's hard to say; I noticed it a lot when I stopped sitting; like something didn't feel right; I wasn't coping as well in a way.

I feel better when I sit for sure; it's not like an immediate thing; I mean there is that post-sit "shine" where you feel peacefulness that washes over you - well unless you are having one of those angry sit days. hahahaha But seriously - overall - things smooth out; even things that don't go my way are ok. Everyday is a good day for sure - to steal an old Zen saying.

I have missed one Ango since I started practicing; at first it didn't bother me a lot, I was done with this practice (being done with practice is also practice - you can't get out; there's nowhere to go. hahaha). This was back in 2018 I think. Well when I came back last Ango - I realized how much I missed it; then after last year's Ango, I stopped again. But about a month or so before this year's Ango, I just felt like I needed to sit, and I started with 15 minutes just to get a regular cadence back. So I made a decision that I will sit now no matter what - not sitting for anything other than sitting's sake.

I think that was my problem; I was brought to practice for something I felt I was lacking, but it took me a long time to realize sitting for sitting's sake. I am selfish and, while it is important to take care of yourself, it's important to not just sit to get something out of it. This led to me starting to do some gathas before eating (which I forget to do), making coffee, washing my hands, etc

I notice with all the gathas - we vow to do whatever it is with all sentient beings. We even sit for sentient beings. That was the part that was missing.

I'm not talking about some hero complex like hey I have to save all sentient beings, I mean realizing that what we do is always for everyone whether we realize it or not; I think zazen practice changed my perspective on that, which ultimately leads to this overall "Everyday is a good day". Work is not the same when you really bring yourself to it and you realize you do it for everyone. Even though I am just a drop in the ocean, I am the ocean; what I do really really matters. Smiling at someone on the street instead of scowling - immediate results.

Sometimes people cut me off in traffic; I used to take it really personally, but what if these cars are just empty? What if these people are having really bad days? They are isolated from Covid; maybe they lost their job, maybe someone they know is sick; maybe they don't know how to deal with their own suffering. Well my pointing out how angry I am at them is not helping. But a smile - a smile can save the world.

Now I'm rambling but I mean this - I think practice really changes you over the long haul in ways you don't always even perceive.

side topic: "mind tantrum" - I love that Jakuden! it's so true

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Tomás ESP]

I started meditating 8 years ago. Went from taking antidepressants and having chronic pain and anxiety, to still having a tendency to have some anxiety (depression and antidepressants gone) and managable pain (still pretty constant). I am not sure when I noticed changes. It is always changing. I did a lot of secular mindfulness, focusing on mindfulness of breathing, body-scanning and open awareness. Also, I went through 3 different therapists (mostly cognitive-behavioral) for 3 1/2 years while I was doing meditation.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[gaurdianaq]

I don't think I've ever really noticed any significant change or any sort of awakening from sitting zazen, I think there have been subtle changes (I feel like I've been a bit more patient, and better at catching myself before I blurt something out that I really don't need to blurt out). I've only been practicing seriously for about 2 months now. But for the last couple of years I've been trying to embody the idea of acceptance/interconnectedness of things. Like if something bad happens (like the flat tire in Jundo's story) I try not to think of it as something bad that has happened to me, just something that happened.

I think some of the most profound experiences I've had were in the beginning when I was first learning about Buddhism and just going "huh, this makes a lot of sense, I want to try to embody this way of living". That's not to say it all makes sense, there is plenty that is still very confusing and I do still have to remind myself.

Apologies for going over


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Sekiyuu]

Apologies in advance for going over, I think answering the question in detail helps more than being concise.

how many years of sitting did it take before you had the body mind dropping off or awakening

I had similar questions when I first started out. Thankfully, this means I've written down a series of notes over my years of practice. I'm posting it here on a temporary pastebin that will expire in a month. Please take it all with a HUGE grain of salt: my particular timeline is specific to me, and in retrospect I don't think any "awakening experiences" are really important to the practice. I don't like sharing them, but I think an honest answer to your question would involve sharing them.

https://pastebin.com/Zd3GXLXv

How long did it take for you to see concrete changes in your life with practice? Changes like becoming kinder, being able to handle emotions better, recovering from disappointments better etc...

I believe I started to see changes after about 2-3 months. In summary: Sometimes I get angry and want to punch people in the face. After 2+ years, that still happens. However, I immediately think "well, I'd be punching myself in the face", with complete frank honesty, like it it's saying "if I drop this apple, it will hit the ground". When realizing this truth, I don't really want to punch anyone anymore.

Sometimes I'll feel anger, anxiety, fear, or depression, and just think: "This won't last forever" while also immediately thinking "Well, it's still here right now! Let's take a closer look...". In looking closer, I notice it's still scary, but something manageable that doesn't resemble the overwhelming emotion it seems like. I don't think this "looking closer" was possible before zazen. It is not an intellectual, rational kind of looking, so I couldn't develop it just from reading books or talking about it.

Sometimes I get in an argument, but I quickly notice that if I'm "standing my ground", there is not actually any ground to stand on. I try to figure out a solution to the argument, rather than try to win it. Often, the solution is to just drop it. Imagine the countless harmful words I haven't said. I'm paraphrasing a bit from a Zen Nova Scotia dharma talk: "come to all arguments unarmed".

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Shawnzen]

Hello.

I can only speak for myself, of course, and I haven't really been practicing regularly for that long, but I have noticed some changes in myself.

For the most part, what I feel is changing is two-fold. On the one hand, since many of my sittings honestly consist of me sitting with the feeling of not wanting to sit, I have become more disciplined and less likely to seek an escape from unpleasant feelings--which in turn has made me more content and restful/happy/peaceful overall.

Another big change for me has been the gradual development of being able to let go of thinking. As thoughts come and go, I notice that my mind is always trying to tell a story. Since I value existence more than my mind's stories about existence, this change (letting go of the thinking process) has actually been quite important for me. It helps me to see things as they are (I think... lol) rather than always being stuck in a mental story.

To tie these two paragraphs together (sorry for going over the three sentence rule...), I would say that the nicest change for me has been the development of an ability to just be with what is without expecting anything. This has made my life richer, more enjoyable, and more peaceful, beautiful, and lovely overall. I'm sure as I continue to sit regularly, I will have some different (more fleshed-out) insights to share.

Thanks for reading.

Gassho,
Shawn
SatToday

[shikantazen]

Thanks all, let me add mine. Not counting my previous meditation practices, I did zazen for about 3 years then a gap of 2 years and then sitting past 1.5 years. Since last 6 months I noticed I am more kinder (e.g., not making hurtful youtube comments), not acting immediately on anger and notice overall more faith in sitting

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Tom A.]

Thanks all, let me add mine. Not counting my previous meditation practices, I did zazen for about 3 years then a gap of 2 years and then sitting past 1.5 years. Since last 6 months I noticed I am more kinder (e.g., not making hurtful youtube comments), not acting immediately on anger and notice overall more faith in sitting

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I struggled for a long time (many years in vipaassana, Zazen, avaita Vedanta etc...) until I could grasp the wacky zenny side of things of “faith” or “trust.” It was “faith” or “trust” that was the last puzzle piece for me. (By faith/trust I mean the faith in that during Zazen I am wholly and completely Buddha, complete and whole, not needing anything more or less, the moment of sitting is the full and complete affirmation of everything, and if I were to die then my life would be complete. There is nothing more to gain.) I noticed more change in 3 months than 3 years of meditation after sincerely practicing with faith/trust.

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[sheeep44]

I wanted to quote a comment I read on the Headspace Blog (very good articles, and answers to common questions as well). If I may quote the article "How do I know if I’m improving?":

" First of all, we are faced with the simple challenge of perspective. In order to judge progress or change in anything, we need to be standing in the same place as before, otherwise the view will be different when we attempt to judge it. But of course, in the case of meditation, the mind itself has changed as a result of the meditation, so when we come to judge progress, it is not the same mind which experienced itself before, making any comparison extremely difficult, if not impossible.

We then have the added problem that the mind that is judging is the same mind which is being judged. This can feel like a bit of mind-bender at first, but when you consider that this is the case, it’s quite hard to imagine how objective we can be. Added to that, meditation leans toward a quality of mind which compares less and is fundamentally non-judgmental.
Awareness means to be present, conscious and, generally speaking, undistracted. Compassion means to experience empathy when we are confronted with the difficulties and challenges of others, but more than that, simply wanting others to be happy. Awareness and compassion tend to develop hand in hand when we practice meditation with good motivation. I would lean away from trying to judge the meditation in any way at all. Come back to the idea of meditation itself, simply experiencing things as they are, in the moment, without judgement.

In fact, real progress could arguably be said to be found in the willingness to sit down, day after day, no matter how you are feeling, and to simply be present with the mind exactly as it is. To have the courage and dedication to do this, no matter whether you perceive the meditation to be good or bad, pleasurable or unpleasurable, beneficial or otherwise…to do this day after day, with sensitivity and kindness – that’s progress."


Whenever I find myself judging my meditation, or life in general, I often read the above quoted text.

I hope this helps.


Warm wishes,

Mattie

[Jakuden]

I wanted to quote a comment I read on the Headspace Blog (very good articles, and answers to common questions as well). If I may quote the article "How do I know if I’m improving?":

" First of all, we are faced with the simple challenge of perspective. In order to judge progress or change in anything, we need to be standing in the same place as before, otherwise the view will be different when we attempt to judge it. But of course, in the case of meditation, the mind itself has changed as a result of the meditation, so when we come to judge progress, it is not the same mind which experienced itself before, making any comparison extremely difficult, if not impossible.

We then have the added problem that the mind that is judging is the same mind which is being judged. This can feel like a bit of mind-bender at first, but when you consider that this is the case, it’s quite hard to imagine how objective we can be. Added to that, meditation leans toward a quality of mind which compares less and is fundamentally non-judgmental.
Awareness means to be present, conscious and, generally speaking, undistracted. Compassion means to experience empathy when we are confronted with the difficulties and challenges of others, but more than that, simply wanting others to be happy. Awareness and compassion tend to develop hand in hand when we practice meditation with good motivation. I would lean away from trying to judge the meditation in any way at all. Come back to the idea of meditation itself, simply experiencing things as they are, in the moment, without judgement.

In fact, real progress could arguably be said to be found in the willingness to sit down, day after day, no matter how you are feeling, and to simply be present with the mind exactly as it is. To have the courage and dedication to do this, no matter whether you perceive the meditation to be good or bad, pleasurable or unpleasurable, beneficial or otherwise…to do this day after day, with sensitivity and kindness – that’s progress."


Whenever I find myself judging my meditation, or life in general, I often read the above quoted text.

I hope this helps.


Warm wishes,

Mattie

Ha! Whoever wrote that sounds like they are bent toward Shikantaza for sure, even if they were using the term “meditation.” Thank you for sharing.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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