prolonged right leg numbness after zazenkai

[Inshin]

You'll be OK Sam even if you feel ovewhelmed at the moment. Personally I couldn't care less about enlightenment, I just want to be at peace with whatever life throws at me moment to moment.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Ryumon]

I am devastated with this, especially that I can't sit zazen normally again. I started sitting in 2013 and hurt my back in 2016 as I didn't know I have to alternate half lotus leg position. I had to stop sitting for few years. I resumed 2 years back and things are going great and now this. I have no interests in life. Only enlightenment. I practiced 9 years of different practices (mantra meditation) with no progress and frustrated and came to zen. This was my only hope and today's news was a big blow. I usually don't cry and i am in tears writing this. After a hard day's of zazenkai, I get this

I can't sit on a cushion; I sit on a stool. It's the same, just a bit higher off the ground.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Juki]

Sam, do not use a seiza bench or sit in seiza with a cushion or without a cushion. Do not sit in seiza at all. In Yoga, the seiza position is called "Hero's Pose," and there is a wealth of medical evidence linking it to peroneal neuropathy. The medical evidence also links peroneal neuropathy to cross-legged sitting. Sitting in seiza or doing anything that involves compression of the knee joint will only aggravate the condition. Our knees are compressed to varying degrees sitting cross-legged, but they are fully compressed in seiza, so that would be the worst possible position for you.

Listen to your doctor as to your options. Sit in a chair. As a Yoga teacher, I would also recommend seeking out a qualified teacher of Yin Yoga, explaining the problem and getting some stretches for release of the muscles surrounding the pinched area. Also do hip stretches. Tightness in the hips results in knee issues.

Don't give up.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah
Apology for going over 3 sentences

[Meitou]

Sam, do not use a seiza bench or sit in seiza with a cushion or without a cushion. Do not sit in seiza at all. In Yoga, the seiza position is called "Hero's Pose," and there is a wealth of medical evidence linking it to peroneal neuropathy. The medical evidence also links it to cross-legged sitting. Sitting in seiza or doing anything that involves compression of the knee joint will only aggravate the condition. Our knees are compressed to varying degrees sitting cross-legged, but they are fully compressed in seiza, so that would be the worst possible position for you.

Listen to your doctor as to your options. Sit in a chair. As a Yoga teacher, I would also recommend seeking out a qualified teacher of Yin Yoga, explaining the problem and getting some stretches for release of the muscles surrounding the pinched area. Also do hip stretches. Tightness in the hips results in knee issues.

Don't give up.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah
Apology for going over 3 sentences

This is such good advice. Sam all I can offer is to say that however you sit, whatever you sit on, in etc, in no way diminishes your practice, your dedication and your heartfelt love for the Dharma. Change, however distressing it is, is all part of our relative reality and our human condition. You've suffered setbacks in the past and overcome them, you'll overcome this. Be kind and understanding with yourself, we are all here sitting with and for you.
Gassho and Big Hugs
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Tairin]

Juki, That is very interesting information about seiza. My wife was discouraged because she couldn’t sit on a zafu with me. I sit Burmese. I made her a seiza bench but after a while she started to say it was uncomfortable for her. She now often reclines on the bed instead.

Sam, Metta for you but as you hopefully know now from your years here. Sitting is sitting regardless of the pose.

Pardon my extra sentences


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Kokuu]

Do not sit in seiza at all. In Yoga, the seiza position is called "Hero's Pose," and there is a wealth of medical evidence linking it to peroneal neuropathy. The medical evidence also links it to cross-legged sitting. Sitting in seiza or doing anything that involves compression of the knee joint will only aggravate the condition. Our knees are compressed to varying degrees sitting cross-legged, but they are fully compressed in seiza, so that would be the worst possible position for you.

Thank you, Juki, that is really helpful to know.

Sam, I am sorry you have injured yourself sitting. Although it seems that 'proper' Zazen is done in a cross-legged posture on the cushion, many of us practice in other ways and consider it just as fully Shikantaza as traditional sitting styles.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Juki]

Juki, That is very interesting information about seiza. My wife was discouraged because she couldn’t sit on a zafu with me. I sit Burmese. I made her a seiza bench but after a while she started to say it was uncomfortable for her. She now often reclines on the bed instead.

Sam, Metta for you but as you hopefully know now from your years here. Sitting is sitting regardless of the pose.

Pardon my extra sentences


Tairin
Sat today and lah

I am not advising that no one should ever sit seiza, I'm only advising Sam due to the circumstances of his injury. For people without knee issues or a nerve injury,, seiza is fine. In Yoga, we say "everybody is different," by which we literally mean every BODY is different. A pose that works for most people may need to be modified for others. We are all slightly different structurally, and each of our bodies carries the baggage of our unique life experiences. Sitting at desks has been unbelievably awful for our species, as we are hunched over in a forward folded position a good chunk of the day. We then compound that problem by spending our leisure time in poor posture watching television or staring at our phones.

Every BODY is different. Listen to your body. It will give you warning signs. I'm 62 years old and I can still sit easily in full lotus, although I generally choose to sit Burmese. I also know men in their early thirties who cannot get up off the floor easily from a seated position.

Never beat yourself up because of your physical limitations. But, if you can improve a physical condition, try. I will tell anyone who will listen that Yoga is the fountain of youth.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

[Ryumon]

I think this thread is a good reminder that "no pain, no gain" is not the right way to sit zazen. I have read many stories of how people have "sat with their pain" which, to me, as someone with occasional serious back pain, is simply dangerous. (I'm not talking about "sitting with your pain" when the pain is not caused by zazen, of course...)

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[shikantazen]

Thank you all for the encouragement. Thank you Juki about the useful warning on Seiza. I will avoid any kind of floor sitting. I used to hate chair sitting but will have to get used to it.

They say zazen physical posture aligns the body while "bringing the mind back" aligns the mind. Sitting in a chair might slow down the body alignment and that's my worry. It is a big hit for my practice. Anyway I don't have an option other than to do my best given my situation.

I wish zazen didn't have the body / posture component and we could simply sit with back support cushion and bring the mind back. The posture component is the one that's causing all the trouble (hurting back, knees, legs).

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Meitou]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but Juki if you could point us to some specific yoga stretches and hip openers, I'm sure others would also be interested and grateful. I'm always on the lookout for any kind of movement that helps with sciatica.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Jundo]

They say zazen physical posture aligns the body while "bringing the mind back" aligns the mind. Sitting in a chair might slow down the body alignment and that's my worry. It is a big hit for my practice. Anyway I don't have an option other than to do my best given my situation.

Old wives tale, or at least, very exaggerated.

The basic truth is that a balanced, comfortable, stable posture is conducive to extended comfortable sitting and some balance and stability of mind, BUT don't become obsessive or compulsive about this idea. Some Japanese and other teachers (e.g., Issho Fujita does this quite a bit, and Nishijima Roshi did a little bit) have some ideas based on some unscientific ideas within Asian medicine about energy flows, spine alignment and such that are just not something to overdo or think of as the "key" to Zazen.

Bottom line: find a way of sitting that feels reasonably balanced, comfortable, stable ... chair is excellent ... adjust it from time to time as needed during a sitting (like my switch from putting my weight left to right or right to left I mentioned) ... and then FORGET ABOUT the body, drop it from mind as a concern, and JUST SIT!

(a little long, apologies)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Juki]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but Juki if you could point us to some specific yoga stretches and hip openers, I'm sure others would also be interested and grateful. I'm always on the lookout for any kind of movement that helps with sciatica.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

I'm wondering if there is a way to do a Treeleaf Yoga class like the Zazenkai is done. My personal practice is Ashtanga and Power Flow, both of which are quite brutal. But, I can teach Yin Yoga, which focuses on the hips, hamstrings, shoulders and back. It's a static practice. No movement, just getting into a pose and holding it for 3 to 5 minutes per pose. People would need to have a couple of Yoga blocks and a strap, but that stuff can be purchased for about 20 bucks or less. Yin is very gentle and accessible to all age groups, as long as you can get yourself off the floor once you sit down. If I do 3 or 4 of these, they could be recorded and archived like the weekly Zazenkai and people could use them whenever. They would need to be roughly 1 hour.

People could also attend live, and if it catches on, we could continue indefinitely. Just an idea.

The only problem for me is that I have no laptop or internet service other than my phone. But I have Zoom on my phone so it might work.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

[Meitou]

I'd be up for this - I can just about get myself up from the floor, although not a pretty or graceful sight I've had some experience of Hatha Yoga, not for a few years now, but I feel I could still do this. Perhaps this thread could be split, to see if there are other takers?

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Seikan]

I'm wondering if there is a way to do a Treeleaf Yoga class like the Zazenkai is done. My personal practice is Ashtanga and Power Flow, both of which are quite brutal. But, I can teach Yin Yoga, which focuses on the hips, hamstrings, shoulders and back. It's a static practice. No movement, just getting into a pose and holding it for 3 to 5 minutes per pose. People would need to have a couple of Yoga blocks and a strap, but that stuff can be purchased for about 20 bucks or less. Yin is very gentle and accessible to all age groups, as long as you can get yourself off the floor once you sit down. If I do 3 or 4 of these, they could be recorded and archived like the weekly Zazenkai and people could use them whenever. They would need to be roughly 1 hour.

People could also attend live, and if it catches on, we could continue indefinitely. Just an idea.

The only problem for me is that I have no laptop or internet service other than my phone. But I have Zoom on my phone so it might work.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

Juki,

I would be very interested as well. I practice a vinyasa style of yoga these days, so balancing that with a Yin practice would be very welcome.

Count me in if you move forward with this idea.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I'm wondering if there is a way to do a Treeleaf Yoga class like the Zazenkai is done. My personal practice is Ashtanga and Power Flow, both of which are quite brutal. But, I can teach Yin Yoga, which focuses on the hips, hamstrings, shoulders and back. It's a static practice. No movement, just getting into a pose and holding it for 3 to 5 minutes per pose. People would need to have a couple of Yoga blocks and a strap, but that stuff can be purchased for about 20 bucks or less. Yin is very gentle and accessible to all age groups, as long as you can get yourself off the floor once you sit down. If I do 3 or 4 of these, they could be recorded and archived like the weekly Zazenkai and people could use them whenever. They would need to be roughly 1 hour.

People could also attend live, and if it catches on, we could continue indefinitely. Just an idea.

The only problem for me is that I have no laptop or internet service other than my phone. But I have Zoom on my phone so it might work.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

In principle, I would love to do so, but we looked at this once (Shoka is also a yoga teacher specializing in folks with age and body restrictions), and it was too concerning that people might overdo or do incorrectly, and that there would be injuries working at a distance and we could not properly supervise the lesson in the same way as a yoga studio. Even in this thread you can see the rare, rare possibility of someone having an unusual health effect from just sitting with crossed legs too much. I can only imagine what "downward dog" might do to someone trying it at home the wrong way!

But let me bring Shoka into this conversation and see what she thinks. Otherwise, it is a lovely idea, and maybe what you propose is different. No "downward dog."

(Sorry, a bit long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah