Practice

[A.J.]

I'm sure it's possible, if someone says "Shikantaza is the only way, all other ways are false" then I'd say that counts as what you're describing, then again maybe not though... If someone says Shikantaza is the one true way and all other ways are false, are they really describing Shikantaza?


Evan,
Sat today!

It also seems odd to treat any one thing like the answer to all of life. It seems more appropriate to my taste to simply consider it a style of sitting even if the style is that of just-sitting.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Well, you obviously seem to have your own ideas of what is right and wrong too, as do most people.

Yes, I condemn certain kinds of practice too, which I consider counter-productive or even harmful for most people (e.g., I personally do not care for practice too centered on attaining "bliss" states as a general observation, I think too intense "koan" centered Zazen is more likely to lead someone to a nervous breakdown than "enlightenment," I think many beliefs of traditional Buddhism (such as that the earth is flat) are superstition (although "to each their own"), and I condemn with all my heart any kind of cultish activity for anybody).

Everyone is entitled to viewpoints, and to advocate certain approaches.

Gassho, J

STLah

I've never been shy about having some ideas but let it be known I'm in a consistent process so some of these interactions are merely thinking about my concerns out loud.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Fanaticism is a word that is generally missused, especially by those who reject the ideas of complete “faith” or “trust” or obedience to a set of rules. I assume anyone who shows loyalty, obedience or trust when it doesn’t benefit them would seem fanatical to some.
Dogen set off on a long quest to bring back a genuine form of Buddhism to Japan, hoping to tear down institutionalized abuse by buddhist priests holding power and using “faith” and a twisted practice as a tool to manipulate. It was rather important that he insisted on and proved the “authenticity” of his teachings if he were to change anything in that sense.

Sorry for the extra sentence.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

I doubt the genuine versus not-genuine framework for Dogen's mission. To speak disparagingly of another group under the same umbrella in ancient times only demonstrates to me that there are others who don't think about things identically in a way that somehow threatens institutional solidarity. He has some great stuff but when he veers off in that direction I tune him out.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

When I switched from Ānāpānasati and attempting Jhanas to Shikantaza it was difficult at first, I was thinking "nothing is happening" (although there was a lot going on), and although I didn't experience any "benefits" while sitting, I've noticed huge/small changes in my daily life. Nowadays I might chose to do Ānāpānasati over having few glasses of wine (it feels so much better), but Shikantaza is my practice. I belive that all the other practices/dharma gates lead to Enlightenment but that's where it stops : Zen and Shikantaza not only lead to Enlightenment, it is a practice of what happens after, of realising the Way, as there were many who achieved Enlightenment but few who realised it in the daily life.

Gassho
Sat

If just-sitting is truly just-sitting then making it the practice that leads to and continues after enlightenment sounds like a lot of to do about nothing.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

It also seems odd to treat any one thing like the answer to all of life. It seems more appropriate to my taste to simply consider it a style of sitting even if the style is that of just-sitting.

This is a great misunderstanding of Shikantaza Zazen: Shikantaza --is-- the answer to all of life ... while sitting ... precisely because all the questions, needs and measures are dropped while sitting. Thus, while sitting, nothing is missing; Thus sitting is its own complete answer.

Then, rising up from the cushion and returning to a life of endless questions, doubts, needs and measures ... the endless questions remains, yet so does the complete answer.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

I doubt the genuine versus not-genuine framework for Dogen's mission. To speak disparagingly of another group under the same umbrella in ancient times only demonstrates to me that there are others who don't think about things identically in a way that somehow threatens institutional solidarity.

That is very often quite true, and some criticisms of other groups stem only from seeking to establish our "in-group" identity.

On the other hand, some criticisms of other groups are legitimate, reasoned and constructive. (Personally, I try to stick with such criticisms as best I can.)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

If just-sitting is truly just-sitting then making it the practice that leads to and continues after enlightenment sounds like a lot of to do about nothing.

Maybe again a bit of a misunderstanding of Shikantaza. In Master Dogen's teaching of "ongoing Practice-Enlightenment," although there may come moments of profound insight into the wholeness and intimate identity of this universe, "Enlightenment" truly has no beginning nor end, and is just manifest in every thought, word or act in which one leaps beyond excess desire, anger and violence, jealousy and other divided thinking and the like.

We are always originally Enlightened from that startless start, yet if we do not realize (understand) and realize (make real thought our actions) such in life, the fact is hidden.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

If just-sitting is truly just-sitting then making it the practice that leads to and continues after enlightenment sounds like a lot of to do about nothing.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I feel like the secret lies in "nothing" as it is opposed to "everything", and if "nothing" and "everything" drops, then it is.....

Gassho
Sat

[A.J.]

This is a great misunderstanding of Shikantaza Zazen: Shikantaza --is-- the answer to all of life ... while sitting ... precisely because all the questions, needs and measures are dropped while sitting. Thus, while sitting, nothing is missing; Thus sitting is its own complete answer.

Then, rising up from the cushion and returning to a life of endless questions, doubts, needs and measures ... the endless questions remains, yet so does the complete answer.

Gassho, J

STLah

That sounds more like sitting with the lack of an answer. My comment was in regard to people treating meditation as a panacea for every conceivable question and problem.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Maybe again a bit of a misunderstanding of Shikantaza. In Master Dogen's teaching of "ongoing Practice-Enlightenment," although there may come moments of profound insight into the wholeness and intimate identity of this universe, "Enlightenment" truly has no beginning nor end, and is just manifest in every thought, word or act in which one leaps beyond excess desire, anger and violence, jealousy and other divided thinking and the like.

We are always originally Enlightened from that startless start, yet if we do not realize (understand) and realize (make real thought our actions) such in life, the fact is hidden.

Gassho, J

STLah

Since enlightenment has no beginning or end and we are always originally enlightened from whence come obscurations? Are obscurations also enlightenment? If not, and enlightenment is original from the startless start, then where does obscuration come from?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I feel like the secret lies in "nothing" as it is opposed to "everything", and if "nothing" and "everything" drops, then it is.....

Gassho
Sat

If there is a secret to it then that doesn't sound like just-sitting either.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Kyoshin]

If there is a secret to it then that doesn't sound like just-sitting either.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

"There is no secret ingredient."
-Kung Fu Panda [emoji209]

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

That sounds more like sitting with the lack of an answer. My comment was in regard to people treating meditation as a panacea for every conceivable question and problem.

But Zazen is in fact a crystal clear answer for all conceivable questions and a panacea resolving all problems.

It does not do this by removing all the questions (it will not tell you the weather next Tuesday, the square root of 275, nor God's favorite ice cream flavor), but it will meet and drop away all questions with a most precise "all things are just as they are."

As well, it will not cure and remove all problems (your flat tire will still be flat, your broken leg will still be broken), but it will meet all problems with an "all things are just as they are," the reminder that "problems" are only "circumstances" pending our rejection of circumstances between our own ears and ... most powerfully ... by washing the whole world into Emptiness by which there is no "self" to suffer, no thing to be suffered, no tire, nor measure of full vs. flat, no leg, no whole or broken, nothing lacking and nothing to repair, in the unbroken Wholeness and Fullness of All.

In the case of the tire, "all things are change" (even flat tires to change ), we role along with the change, while also seeing that ultimately "nothing rises or falls."

Not a thing in the universe escapes the flowing wholeness of emptiness so, yes, Zazen is a complete answer and a total cure, even as next Tuesday remains a mystery, our flat tire still needs to be changed and a busted leg needs a cast.

Gassho, J

STLah (Sorry, a bit long)

PS - God's favorite ice cream flavor? Why, ALL of them, of course!

[Jundo]

Since enlightenment has no beginning or end and we are always originally enlightened from whence come obscurations? Are obscurations also enlightenment? If not, and enlightenment is original from the startless start, then where does obscuration come from?

The "obscurations" come from that self/other divide in which our mental processes separate the wholeness of suchness into me vs. you, me vs. everything not me, this and that, the things I link and the things I don't, etc., breaking the world into separate pieces and our subjective self-judgments and reactions to the separate pieces, with all the incumbent frictions and conflicts, desires and disappointments.

Some schools of Eastern thought and practice seek to complete get past the viewpoint of separation back to wholeness, consideration the separation purely delusion to be escaped. Zen teachings are rather different, by coming to see that the wholeness and division are actually "not two," just "two sides of a no sided coin," thus finding the divided and deluded world still the same, yet very different, when see through (see above comment about "flat tires" which are still flat and still a problem needing change, yet we all see that there are no separate tires, no flat or full in the overall "Fullness," and thus nothing lacking.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

But Zazen is in fact a crystal clear answer and a panacea for all conceivable questions and problems.

It does not do this by removing all the questions (it will not tell you the weather next Tuesday nor God's favorite ice cream flavor), but it will meet and drop away all questions with a most precise "all things are just as they are."

It will not cure and solve all problems (your flat tire will still be flat, your broken leg will still be broken), but it will meet all problems with an "all things are just as they are," the reminder that "problems" are only "circumstances" pending our rejection of circumstances between our own ears and ... most powerfully ... by washing the whole world into Emptiness by which there is no "self" to suffer, no thing to be suffered, no tire nor full nor flat, not leg, no whole or broken, nothing lacking and nothing to repair. As to the tire, "All things are change" (even flat tires to change ), we role along with the change, while also seeing that ultimately "nothing rises or falls."



Not a thing in the universe escapes the flowing wholeness of emptiness so, yes, Zazen is a complete answer and a total cure, even as next Tuesday remains a mystery, our flat tire still needs to be changed and a busted leg needs a cast.

Gassho, J

STLah (Sorry, a bit long)

PS - God's favorite ice cream flavor? Why, ALL of them, of course!

It is what it is. That can surely be said of anything. I'm not sure if a formal Zazen practice is needed to realize that.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah