Practice

[Kyōsen]

I also think that Shikantaza is the best of all practices in the universe, bar none, and the only practice in this universe, bar none ... during the time of sitting, and for those for whom it is the right practice.

After reading about what you think is missing from Shikantaza explanations and letting that guide my sitting, I find myself agreeing with this statement. Although, I also engage in nembutsu too, haha!

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Jundo]

... is it not possible for Zen people to become Shikantaza thumpers making it into the final word on everything in a way that betrays a lack of sincere inquiry through artificial finality in the same way that some Christians become Bible thumpers resorting to a standard text as the answer for everything rather than doing any free thinking themselves?

I could do that about the NY Yankees or tuna fish if a fanatic about it. However, trying to remember, I don't think that I have ever heard any teacher do what you say about Shikantaza, not ever that I can recall: No Genzo-thumpers.

It is an amazing practice, however, and I do believe that so may people could benefit from it "dropping of judgments, equanimious, sitting in total completion, nothing more to do or place to go" nature in this constantly judging, dissatisfied, feeling lack, endless things to do and places to go to "finally get there" world. And, during the time of sitting, there is no other practice, nothing more in need of doing.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Sorry, a little long)

[Jundo]

I will add that it is possible to take up other practices, such as Metta or Tonglen for the softening of the heart, praying to Jesus or nembutsu of Amida for those so inclined, some daily mindfulness of our mental states etc.

However, Shikantaza does not mix well with certain kinds of meditation practices that are very goal oriented or attaining unusual states, deep concentration or bliss, intense Kensho experiences etc. That is rather at cross purposes, so I do not recommend that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I could do that about the NY Yankees or tuna fish if a fanatic about it. However, trying to remember, I don't think that I have ever heard any teacher do what you say about Shikantaza, not ever that I can recall: No Genzo-thumpers.

It is an amazing practice, however, and I do believe that so may people could benefit from it "dropping of judgments, equanimious, sitting in total completion, nothing more to do or place to go" nature in this constantly judging, dissatisfied, feeling lack, endless things to do and places to go to "finally get there" world. And, during the time of sitting, there is no other practice, nothing more in need of doing.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Sorry, a little long)

Making anything the end-all, be-all and best-of-all seems by definition to be a bit fanatical.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Making anything the end-all, be-all and best-of-all seems by definition to be a bit fanatical.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

But I ask you, who is doing that, any example? Never heard that in the Soto Zen world that I can recall (although I am sure there is somebody, somewhere like that if we dig around, but it would still be rare).

When we are sitting, however, during the timeless time of sitting with no before or after the time of sitting, Zazen is the Alpha and Omega, which is a bit different from what you describe I believe.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Dogen did say this kind of thing in Bendowa, but I think it is a bit of salesmanship and ... even then ... he never says that other ways are not good too (it is exclusively what he recommends as the front, not the exclusive gate or the gate that others might recommend).

Question 1: We have now heard that the merit of zazen is lofty and great. But an ignorant person may be doubtful and say, “There are many gates for buddha dharma. Why do you recommend zazen exclusively?”

Answer: Because this is the front gate for buddha dharma.

Question 2: Why do you regard zazen alone as the front gate?

Answer: The great master Shakyamuni authentically transmitted this splendid method of attaining the way and all buddha tathagatas of the past, future, and present attain the way by practicing zazen. For this reason it has been transmitted as the front gate. Furthermore, all ancestors in India and China attained the way by practicing zazen. Thus, I now teach this front gate to human beings and devas.

...

His lack of exclusivity is show clearly here ...

Question 4: The Lotus School and the Avatamsaka School, which have been transmitted to Japan, both expound the ultimate of Mahayana teaching. Furthermore, the teaching of the Mantra [Shingon] School was directly transmitted by Vairochana Tathagata to Vajrasattva, and its lineage from teacher to disciple since then has not been interupted. This teaching expounds “Mind itself is buddha,” and “Everyone’s mind becomes buddha.” They also advocate the authentic enlightenment of the Five Buddhas within one sitting, instead of practice through many eons. It is regarded as the supreme buddha dharma. What extraordinary aspect of the practice you mention makes you recommend it, disregarding the practice of other schools?

Answer: You should know that in the buddha’s house we do not discuss superiority or inferiority of the teaching; nor do we concern ourselves with the depth or shallowness of the dharma, but only with the genuineness of practice.

There are those who, attracted by grass, flowers, mountains, and waters, flow into the buddha way; and there are those who, grasping soil, rocks, sand, and pebbles, uphold the buddha’s seal. Although the boundless words of the Buddha permeate myriad things, the turning of the great dharma wheel is contained inside a single particle of dust. In this sense, the line “Mind itself is buddha” is the moon reflected on water, and the teaching, “Sitting itself is becoming buddha” is a reflection in the mirror. Do not be concerned with the splendor of the words. By showing the buddha ancestors’ excellent way of direct transmission, I am just recommending the practice of the immediate realization of enlightenment, hoping that you will become a true practitioner of the way.

...


Question 6: Why, among the four bodily presences taught in the buddha’s house, do you emphasize sitting alone, recommend Zen samadhi, and expound entry into realization?

Answer: It is impossible to know completely the methods by which all buddhas from the past practiced and entered realization, one after another. It is hard to know, but if you look into it, all buddhas are engaged in zazen as the source of realization. Don’t look for anything else.

https://villagezendo.org/bendowa-on-...or-of-the-way/

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Dogen did say this kind of thing in Bendowa, but I think it is a bit of salesmanship and ... even then ... he never says that other ways are not good too (it is exclusively what he recommends as the front, not the exclusive gate or the gate that others might recommend).




His lack of exclusivity is show clearly here ...



Gassho, J

STLah

I was thinking it sounds a little fanatical all the way back to Dogen but if we take his more fanatical sounding statements as salesmanship then whatevs I suppose.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I was thinking it sounds a little fanatical all the way back to Dogen but if we take his more fanatical sounding statements as salesmanship then whatevs I suppose.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Well, "salesmanship" may be the wrong word, because Dogen and many others did/do honestly believe the Shikantaza is truly truly special and wonderful as a practice (and it is!), so not like a salesman trying to sell a used car, pulliing the wool over somebody's eyes.

But like anyone, even the Buddha (who insisted that the Buddha way is the best way ... "Buddha or Bust!" ... "Buddha Way or the Highway!" ... ), folks naturally believe that their favorite way is great or best. And Soto Zen is a pretty glorious way, yes indeed.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Well, "salesmanship" may be the wrong word, because Dogen and many others did/do honestly believe the Shikantaza is truly truly special and wonderful as a practice (and it is!), so not like a salesman trying to sell a used car, pulliing the wool over somebody's eyes.

But like anyone, even the Buddha (who insisted that the Buddha way is the best way ... "Buddha or Bust!" ... "Buddha Way or the Highway!" ... ), folks naturally believe that their favorite way is great or best. And Soto Zen is a pretty glorious way, yes indeed.

Gassho, J

STLah

I didn't think you meant like selling a used car so much as giving the best pitch for his way as he could. Even an honest salesman might sound a little fanatical when they try so hard to emphasize their product.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I didn't think you meant like selling a used car so much as giving the best pitch for his way as he could. Even an honest salesman might sound a little fanatical when they try so hard to emphasize their product.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Hah. Perhaps we might say that Shikantaza is a "non-product," for there is nothing to produce or destroy, nothing to sell and nothing to obtain, no price on the priceless, no loss and no gain of the bottom line. It is all colors and all shapes and, further, as a vehicle, it is neither used nor new for beyond all time, nor is there anywhere to go even as we keep driving forward. Shikantaza and all vehicles are the one vehicle.

one vehicle ［一乗］ ( ekayāna;  ichijō): Also, single vehicle, Buddha vehicle, one Buddha vehicle, one vehicle of Buddhahood, or supreme vehicle. The teaching that leads all people to Buddhahood. It is taught in the Flower Garland Sutra and other Mahayana sutras, but the Lotus Sutra places the greatest emphasis on it. The Buddha’s teaching is compared to a vehicle ( yāna) that carries one to a particular state of enlightenment. In accordance with people’s capacities, the pre-Lotus Sutra teachings expound and emphasize the voice-hearer vehicle (shrāvaka-yāna), which leads one to the state of arhat; the cause-awakened one vehicle (pratyekabuddha-yāna), which leads one to the state of pratyekabuddha; and the bodhisattva vehicle (bodhisattva-yāna), which after many kalpas of practice leads one to Buddhahood. The voice-hearer vehicle and the cause-awakened one vehicle are together termed the two vehicles, and with the addition of the bodhisattva vehicle, the three vehicles.

The Lotus Sutra teaches that these three vehicles are not ends in themselves but means to lead people to the one vehicle, which unifies and refines the three vehicle teachings. The “Expedient Means” (second) chapter of the sutra says that the Buddhas employ only a single vehicle to preach the Law to living beings. It also says that the Buddhas, utilizing the power of expedient means, divide the one vehicle and preach as though it were three. The chapter again says that there is only one vehicle in all the Buddha lands throughout the universe, and the Buddha’s sole purpose is to lead all beings to Buddhahood. The T’ien-t’ai school called this the “replacement of the three vehicles with the one vehicle.” In the Lotus Sutra, the term one vehicle is synonymous with the Buddha’s true teaching.

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/O/28

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Hah. Perhaps we might say that Shikantaza is a "non-product," for there is nothing to produce or destroy, nothing to sell and nothing to obtain, no price on the priceless, no loss and no gain of the bottom line. It is all colors and all shapes and, further, as a vehicle, it is neither used nor new for beyond all time, nor is there anywhere to go even as we keep driving forward. Shikantaza and all vehicles are the one vehicle.

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/O/28

Gassho, J

STLah

I dunno, I mean, Dogen seems to make statements strongly condemning what he judges as Buddhist heresy (even Zen heresy) which is a mark of fanaticism. He seems very preoccupied with the idea that his version is the right one. Perhaps one buys into the idea that one isn't being pitched anything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I dunno, I mean, Dogen seems to make statements strongly condemning what he judges as Buddhist heresy (even Zen heresy) which is a mark of fanaticism. He seems very preoccupied with the idea that his version is the right one. Perhaps one buys into the idea that one isn't being pitched anything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Well, you obviously seem to have your own ideas of what is right and wrong too, as do most people.

Yes, I condemn certain kinds of practice too, which I consider counter-productive or even harmful for most people (e.g., I personally do not care for practice too centered on attaining "bliss" states as a general observation, I think too intense "koan" centered Zazen is more likely to lead someone to a nervous breakdown than "enlightenment," I think many beliefs of traditional Buddhism (such as that the earth is flat) are superstition (although "to each their own"), and I condemn with all my heart any kind of cultish activity for anybody).

Everyone is entitled to viewpoints, and to advocate certain approaches.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

I dunno, I mean, Dogen seems to make statements strongly condemning what he judges as Buddhist heresy (even Zen heresy) which is a mark of fanaticism. He seems very preoccupied with the idea that his version is the right one. Perhaps one buys into the idea that one isn't being pitched anything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Fanaticism is a word that is generally missused, especially by those who reject the ideas of complete “faith” or “trust” or obedience to a set of rules. I assume anyone who shows loyalty, obedience or trust when it doesn’t benefit them would seem fanatical to some.
Dogen set off on a long quest to bring back a genuine form of Buddhism to Japan, hoping to tear down institutionalized abuse by buddhist priests holding power and using “faith” and a twisted practice as a tool to manipulate. It was rather important that he insisted on and proved the “authenticity” of his teachings if he were to change anything in that sense.

Sorry for the extra sentence.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Inshin]

When I switched from Ānāpānasati and attempting Jhanas to Shikantaza it was difficult at first, I was thinking "nothing is happening" (although there was a lot going on), and although I didn't experience any "benefits" while sitting, I've noticed huge/small changes in my daily life. Nowadays I might chose to do Ānāpānasati over having few glasses of wine (it feels so much better), but Shikantaza is my practice. I belive that all the other practices/dharma gates lead to Enlightenment but that's where it stops : Zen and Shikantaza not only lead to Enlightenment, it is a practice of what happens after, of realising the Way, as there were many who achieved Enlightenment but few who realised it in the daily life.

Gassho
Sat

[gaurdianaq]

This.

Well, I can go all the way with the first paragraph at least. Regarding the second, is it not possible for Zen people to become Shikantaza thumpers making it into the final word on everything in a way that betrays a lack of sincere inquiry through artificial finality in the same way that some Christians become Bible thumpers resorting to a standard text as the answer for everything rather than doing any free thinking themselves?

I don't know that you're doing this per se, yet this possibility provides one of my hesitations for taking up the kind of only-Shikantaza approach I see in some. In the meanwhile when I sit just-sitting I will do so without making so much of it.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I'm sure it's possible, if someone says "Shikantaza is the only way, all other ways are false" then I'd say that counts as what you're describing, then again maybe not though... If someone says Shikantaza is the one true way and all other ways are false, are they really describing Shikantaza?


Evan,
Sat today!