Did buddha really teach zazen or is it from bodhidharma?

[shikantazen]

It looks like Buddha's original teaching was theravada style vipassana practice. Zazen seems to be something that came into existence from one of his students (may be bodhidharma or someone before him) and is being called a teaching by buddha. Zazen could be a more authentic practice than what buddha taught, I'm curious why is it attributed to buddha and did he really teach zen (and all other kinds of teachings e.g., mahayana, vajrayana, nachiren, soto vs rinzai etc)

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[A.J.]

It looks like Buddha's original teaching was theravada style vipassana practice. Zazen seems to be something that came into existence from one of his students (may be bodhidharma or someone before him) and is being called a teaching by buddha. Zazen could be a more authentic practice than what buddha taught, I'm curious why is it attributed to buddha and did he really teach zen (and all other kinds of teachings e.g., mahayana, vajrayana, nachiren, soto vs rinzai etc)

Gassho,
Sam
ST

In the suttas my understanding is that Vipassana always went with Samatha as two wings of a bird: one being concentration and the other being a calm state of mind. The difference seen between that and Zen (or even Dzogchen) is that those meditation practices are more formless with an open ended awareness.The reason I'm not sure there is a contradiction here is that I see how calm concentration could easily bleed into an open formless awareness and also, the other way around.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

It looks like Buddha's original teaching was theravada style vipassana practice. Zazen seems to be something that came into existence from one of his students (may be bodhidharma or someone before him) and is being called a teaching by buddha. Zazen could be a more authentic practice than what buddha taught, I'm curious why is it attributed to buddha and did he really teach zen (and all other kinds of teachings e.g., mahayana, vajrayana, nachiren, soto vs rinzai etc)

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Zen teachings and practices probably arose when Indian Buddhist teachings and practice came to China (Bodhidharma is probably more fictional symbol for that coming than historical personage) and encountered so-called Xuanxue Taoist (Mysterious Learning), Confucian and other Chinese sensibilities which perfumed the Indian approaches.

That said, there have been earlier Buddhist traditions that much partook of "silent illumination" and Just Sitting, such as the fact that the highest (Fourth) Jhana of the old Suttas, before the later Theravadan commentaries and various Hindu techniques were added and changed attitude quite a bit, speaks of similar outlook:

... the "Fourth Jhana in the Suttas," as opposed to the highly concentrated, hyper-absorbed Visuddhimagga commentary version ... was considered the 'summit' of Jhana practice (as the higher Jhana, No. 5 to 8, were not encouraged as a kind of otherworldly 'dead end' [which partakes more of Hindu styles of otherworldly meditation which the Buddha is said to have specifically rejected]) and appears to manifest (quoting the sutta descriptions in the book) "an abandoning of pleasure, pain, attractions/aversions, a dropping of both joy and grief", a dropping away of both rapture and bliss states, resulting in a "purity of mindfulness" and "equanimity". Combine this with the fact that, more than a "one pointed mind absorbed into a particular object", there is a "unification of mind" (described as a broader awareness around the object of meditation ... whereby the "mind itself becomes collected and unmoving, but not the objects of awareness, as mindfulness becomes lucid, effortless and unbroken" (See, for examples. pages 82-83 here))

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=lQ_ZzFgJ1AwC&lpg=PP1&ots=Nfh_Zax84P&dq=richard%20skankman&pg=PA80#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is very close to a description of Shikantaza, for example, as dropping all aversions and attractions, finding unification of mind, collected and unmoving, effortless and unbroken, in equanimity, in/as/through/not removed from the life, circumstances, complexities which surround us and are us, sitting still with what is just as it is.

Samatha/Vipassana (Wisdom and Insight) are two wings of a flying bird which leaves no traces, and both are found and discovered within the silent wisdom and illuminated insight of Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

SaTodayLAH

[Jundo]

As to this ...

I'm curious why is it attributed to buddha and did he really teach zen (and all other kinds of teachings e.g., mahayana, vajrayana, nachiren, soto vs rinzai etc)

I might drive a Ford although it is far removed from the Model-T that Henry Ford first developed in his genius, and I fly a 777 although is is much faster and more wondrous than the original glider at Kitty Hawk although the very same air and sky. If Thelonius Monk plays the piano, it is much the same instrument, yet a different expression, from how Chopin played, yet both are the same keys and notes expressed in equally excellent ways.

It is not so important to ask which is the original or first expression of driving or flying or playing, for different vehicles or sounds may suit different riders or players, and so more a matter of what gets going, takes flight or makes a good sound.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Samatha/Vipassana (Wisdom and Insight) are two wings of a flying bird which leaves no traces, and both are found and discovered within the silent wisdom and illuminated insight of Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

SaTodayLAH

Yeah I never understood the systematizing of stages in meditation that started among some early Buddhists. My experience practicing would sometimes bleed into a state that later I saw some correspondence with in the tradition but I never felt I was particularly seeking it and it seemed too organic to be systematized.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

As to this ...



I might drive a Ford although it is far removed from the Model-T that Henry Ford first developed in his genius, and I fly a 777 although is is much faster and more wondrous than the original glider at Kitty Hawk. If Thelonius Monk plays the piano, it is much the same instrument, yet a different expression, from how Chopin played, yet both are the same keys and notes expressed in equally excellent ways.

It is not so important to ask which is the original or first expression of driving or flying or playing, for different vehicles or sounds may suit different riders or players, and so more a matter of what gets going, takes flight or makes a good sound.

Gassho, J

STLah

When Dogen talks about Zazen being the only practice of the Buddhas did he mean Buddhas in a general sense or was he including what we consider to be the historical Buddha?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

When Dogen talks about Zazen being the only practice of the Buddhas did he mean Buddhas in a general sense or was he including what we consider to be the historical Buddha?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Dogen taught that, when sitting Zazen, there is only Zazen and not one other atom in the whole universe, the one act being acted by the whole universe in that action of sitting. That said, rising up from the sitting cushion ... he cleaned the temple, studied various Sutras, chanted some chants, did this and that ... but each was still the one thing and action in the universe in that moment.

Being the days before the internet or airplanes , Dogen had pretty extensive knowledge of many other Japanese and Chinese Buddhist practices, some but more limited knowledge of Indian practices via Chinese translations of a whole mix of Indian Sutras. He approved of some, seemed to disapprove of others, and did not comment at all on still others ...

... but what he taught was Shikantaza and what he taught, which he considered thoroughly faithful and true to the Buddhas teaching (both the one in India, the one in the Lotus Sutra, and the 10,000 Buddhas in the 10 Directions everywhere).

Gassho, J

STLah

[Nanrin]

Yeah I never understood the systematizing of stages in meditation that started among some early Buddhists. My experience practicing would sometimes bleed into a state that later I saw some correspondence with in the tradition but I never felt I was particularly seeking it and it seemed too organic to be systematized.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Most of the systematization is from the commentary era, not the earliest texts. Modern vipassana/insight as taught in the west stems from handful of Burmese teachers about a century ago who were very keen on the commentaries and later texts. Although Burmese techniques have become increasingly popular, most monks who I know do not study or use the commentaries.

Gassho,

Nanrin

[Tomás ESP]

It looks like Buddha's original teaching was theravada style vipassana practice. Zazen seems to be something that came into existence from one of his students (may be bodhidharma or someone before him) and is being called a teaching by buddha. Zazen could be a more authentic practice than what buddha taught, I'm curious why is it attributed to buddha and did he really teach zen (and all other kinds of teachings e.g., mahayana, vajrayana, nachiren, soto vs rinzai etc)

Gassho,
Sam
ST

The Buddha attained liberation by seeing things just as they are. He learned from (two?) teachers to achieve very high levels of practice (i.e. very complex non-dual states) and he saw that he was still not liberated. When he sat under the Bodhi Tree and applied Samatha and Vipassana, he saw how suffering comes into being and how to be liberated from it. Zazen goes straight to it. The goal is just this. Just this without the whole layer of suffering that our mind generates by clinging to greed, hatred and delusion.

Gassho, Tomás

Sat

[A.J.]

Most of the systematization is from the commentary era, not the earliest texts. Modern vipassana/insight as taught in the west stems from handful of Burmese teachers about a century ago who were very keen on the commentaries and later texts. Although Burmese techniques have become increasingly popular, most monks who I know do not study or use the commentaries.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Hmm, I had been under the impression that it was somewhat early. Later (though still earlier than Mahayana I'm guessing) would make sense.
Thanks, if you have any further breakdown of the historical development I'd be interested.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Nanrin]

Apologies for the extra words.

It looks like Buddha's original teaching was theravada style vipassana practice.

"Theravada style Vipassana practice" is only about a century old - the movement was a reaction to British colonialism in Burma and is largely based on commentaries and the Visuttimagga. Nevertheless, the vipassana movement, the commentaries it was based on, the text commented on, and the people involved are all a part of a chain that goes back to the historical Buddha.

Silent Illumination has a clear history going back a thousand years to Hongzhi Zhengjue, who was describing what previous masters had taught. Teachers of this style of zazen are also a part of a chain that goes back to the historical Buddha.

One wears saffron robes, another black. I'm not sure they are so different inside.

When reading early pali suttas, I am surprised at how often they seem to describe Zazen!

Gassho,

Nanrin

Sat today

[Nanrin]

Again, I need more words, but I'll keep it really brief.

Hmm, I had been under the impression that it was somewhat early. Later (though still earlier than Mahayana I'm guessing) would make sense.
Thanks, if you have any further breakdown of the historical development I'd be interested.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Most of the Atthakatha (the Pali commentaries) are attributed to Buddhaghosa or Dhammapala - both of who lived about a thousand years after the Buddha. By then Mahayana was well developed and Buddhism was flourishing in China!

Maybe you are thinking of the Abhidhamma (which among other things is a sort of systematization of the teachings, although not really much related to vipassana)? Tradition says that it was from the Buddha, but it definitely didn't emerge until at least a couple centuries after the Buddha's death. Different schools had different versions, and some didn't have it at all and said the others were making it up.

The origins of Mahayana are pretty hard to trace, but the prajnaparamita literature is believed to have emerged in the first century BCE - just four hundred years or so after the historical Buddha. A theory I am fond of things that the perfection of wisdom (prajnaparamita) literature, such as the heart and diamond sutras, was a bit of a reaction to the overly analytical methods used to invent the Abhidhamma - a course correction back towards the original practice.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Sat today

[A.J.]

Again, I need more words, but I'll keep it really brief.



Most of the Atthakatha (the Pali commentaries) are attributed to Buddhaghosa or Dhammapala - both of who lived about a thousand years after the Buddha. By then Mahayana was well developed and Buddhism was flourishing in China!

Maybe you are thinking of the Abhidhamma (which among other things is a sort of systematization of the teachings, although not really much related to vipassana)? Tradition says that it was from the Buddha, but it definitely didn't emerge until at least a couple centuries after the Buddha's death. Different schools had different versions, and some didn't have it at all and said the others were making it up.

The origins of Mahayana are pretty hard to trace, but the prajnaparamita literature is believed to have emerged in the first century BCE - just four hundred years or so after the historical Buddha. A theory I am fond of things that the perfection of wisdom (prajnaparamita) literature, such as the heart and diamond sutras, was a bit of a reaction to the overly analytical methods used to invent the Abhidhamma - a course correction back towards the original practice.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Sat today

I wasn't so sure on the dates for the systematizing of meditation states so your citing of specific individuals helps a lot with that. If that is the case then it seems to leave a lot of room for how we think about meditation in the really early-early Buddhism. Thanks for the solid information with citations!

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Inshin]

As to this ...



I might drive a Ford although it is far removed from the Model-T that Henry Ford first developed in his genius, and I fly a 777 although is is much faster and more wondrous than the original glider at Kitty Hawk. If Thelonius Monk plays the piano, it is much the same instrument, yet a different expression, from how Chopin played, yet both are the same keys and notes expressed in equally excellent ways.

It is not so important to ask which is the original or first expression of driving or flying or playing, for different vehicles or sounds may suit different riders or players, and so more a matter of what gets going, takes flight or makes a good sound.

Gassho, J

STLah

Today's wind blows Miles Davis' trumpet and rain bounces off Red Garland's piano.

Gassho
Sat

[Bion]

It looks like Buddha's original teaching was theravada style vipassana practice. Zazen seems to be something that came into existence from one of his students (may be bodhidharma or someone before him) and is being called a teaching by buddha. Zazen could be a more authentic practice than what buddha taught, I'm curious why is it attributed to buddha and did he really teach zen (and all other kinds of teachings e.g., mahayana, vajrayana, nachiren, soto vs rinzai etc)

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I think we forget that zazen is not just the form.. the posture. We think of zazen as an “exercise” we do for 30 minutes and then carry on with daily life. That is not the zazen of buddhas

[emoji1374] SatToday lah