Zen, zazen and awareness in sleep/lucid dreaming as a practice

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  • Inshin
    Member
    • Jul 2020
    • 557

    #31
    Originally posted by Erik
    Hi Ania,
    I had a period of a couple years around 20 years of age where I would spontaneously lucid dream almost nightly. I was quite fascinated by that state of consciousness, being aware during dreaming, and would record my dreams upon waking, which I believe supported the skill, recognizing and returning to that state.
    Some years later, after having been studying some Buddhism and meditating off and on, I picked up a book called The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, a Tibetan trained in the Bon tradition. Rinpoche wrote "If we cannot carry our practice into sleep, if we lose ourselves every night, what chance do we have to be aware when death comes? Look to your experience in dreams to know how you will fare in death. Look to your experience of sleep to discover whether or not you are truly awake."
    This struck a chord with me, sort of validating how I felt that my experiences were valuable. It made sense to me; why not utilize all those hours usually spent in unconsciousness, meditating, aware. I began to do some of the practices that promote lucidity, both from the book, and other techniques I had learned of elsewhere. They worked to varying degrees, mainly depending on how much I applied them. I never achieved a steady, relaxed state - I was always flying around and exploring/creating the rich and unbelievably realistic inner world.
    Then busy life found me neglecting much of my inner pursuits, I did not actively seek to promote the state, and my lucid dreaming became quite infrequent.
    Today, they occur here and there, and are always interesting, but not necessarily supportive of our shared goals here. Though, I still believe the state has great potential, in that it is a huge chunk of time where you can meditate, if you can train yourself to do so in that state (which I think is very possible if you can resist the urge to fly! I imagine that having an established zazen practice would be supportive of attaining lucid dreaming.
    Thanks for the reminder and wishing you waking dreams,

    Gassho,
    Erik
    You reflect exactly my thoughts and approach, although I only had few lucid dreams. For me the dreams and waking reality are not that different and maybe possibly have the same substance. You can be so preoccupied in daily daydreaming, attaching to opinions, likes and dislikes, hardly ever present but mostly lost in the past or future. Similarly, the dreams have so much power that they draw you in the bizzare world without realising - you only know you were dreaming once you wake up. And we can wake up to our reality, having this moments of awareness : am I washing the dishes fully aware or am I so lost a political debate going on in my head that I end up braking a cup?
    Recognising the moments when I'm not aware is part of my practice : in daily reality, in sleep and dreams (much harder) and in zazen.
    I'm aware of going over 3 sentences


    Gassho

    Sat

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40190

      #32
      Originally posted by Erik
      Though, I still believe the state has great potential, in that it is a huge chunk of time where you can meditate, if you can train yourself to do so in that state (which I think is very possible if you can resist the urge to fly! I imagine that having an established zazen practice would be supportive of attaining lucid dreaming.
      If one sits Shikantaza in a dream, all is ordinary, sacred, strange and nothing special, with nothing to attain.

      If one sits Shikantaza outside a dream, all is ordinary, sacred, strange and nothing special, with nothing to attain.

      In truth, there is no inside or outside of a dream.

      Gassho, J

      STLah
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Inshin
        Member
        • Jul 2020
        • 557

        #33
        Originally posted by Jundo
        If one sits Shikantaza in a dream, all is ordinary, sacred, strange and nothing special, with nothing to attain.

        If one sits Shikantaza outside a dream, all is ordinary, sacred, strange and nothing special, with nothing to attain.

        In truth, there is no inside or outside of a dream.

        Gassho, J

        STLah
        This!


        Gassho
        Sat

        Comment

        • Ryudo
          Member
          • Nov 2015
          • 424

          #34


          SatToday
          流道
          Ryū Dou

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40190

            #35
            On the matter of these sleepless Sesshin and such ... I think that the old boys like Dogen and Sawaki Roshi used to think of sleep as a weakness to overcome, and did not think of it as a natural and NECESSARY physiological process ... like breathing or defecation ... that cannot and should not be overcome just by willpower. They did not understand how important sleep is to the body-mind's health. Now, we know better.

            Gassho, Jundo

            STLah
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Erik
              Member
              • Oct 2020
              • 5

              #36
              Originally posted by Ania
              You reflect exactly my thoughts and approach, although I only had few lucid dreams. For me the dreams and waking reality are not that different and maybe possibly have the same substance. You can be so preoccupied in daily daydreaming, attaching to opinions, likes and dislikes, hardly ever present but mostly lost in the past or future. Similarly, the dreams have so much power that they draw you in the bizzare world without realising - you only know you were dreaming once you wake up. And we can wake up to our reality, having this moments of awareness : am I washing the dishes fully aware or am I so lost a political debate going on in my head that I end up braking a cup?
              Recognising the moments when I'm not aware is part of my practice : in daily reality, in sleep and dreams (much harder) and in zazen.
              I'm aware of going over 3 sentences


              Gassho

              Sat
              Indeed, waking up in dreams seems to support waking up in waking life.

              Gassho

              sat today

              Comment

              • Erik
                Member
                • Oct 2020
                • 5

                #37
                Originally posted by Jundo
                On the matter of these sleepless Sesshin and such ... I think that the old boys like Dogen and Sawaki Roshi used to think of sleep as a weakness to overcome, and did not think of it as a natural and NECESSARY physiological process ... like breathing or defecation ... that cannot and should not be overcome just by willpower. They did not understand how important sleep is to the body-mind's health. Now, we know better.

                Gassho, Jundo

                STLah
                Yes, indeed, we need that deep dreamless sleep for rest and repair!

                Comment

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