Zen, zazen and awareness in sleep/lucid dreaming as a practice

[Inshin]

Zen is all life and zazen is a lot about awareness, so do you think that awareness should continue during dreaming and sleep (we often just pass out and only rember few dreams, if any)?
In Tibetan Buddhism there is a practice called Yoga of dream and sleep thanks to which it is possible to continue to be aware during sleep, however it is so packed with cultural "luggage" that it is difficult for non Tibetan to follow. The only similar thing in Zen tradition I came across are stories about Zen masters sitting nightly zazen, trying to fight off sleep by jabbing themselves in a leg with a giblet (there are some less extreme examples too
Practice during sleep is something I would like to explore, has anyone of you had any experience with zazen and being aware in sleep?

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Ania

Personally I think that when it is time to sleep, just sleep.

But that is just my opinion and there are doubtless others.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

When it is time to sleep, just sleep.

Those fellows poking themselves all night are mostly those Rinzai folks, pushing themselves to the breaking point in search of the big, booming Kensho.

Dogen said that all of life is just a dream, and night or day, all is a dream within a dream, so just dream this life well.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meian]

Hi Ania,

The Yoga of Dreams is, I think, part of the Vajrayana sect of Tibetan Buddhism -- far outside the scope of Zen and zazen practice. I have learned from a Tibetan Lama who is from that particular tradition, but only some of the Bardo lessons, basic meditation, and tonglen practices.

Zen, and Soto Zen, is just Zen. Tibetan Buddhism is very different. It's kind of like comparing swimming to walking -- both are exercises, but are very different processes.

It is good to learn about different branches and cultures in Buddhism. But practicing different forms together can become confusing sometimes, in my experience. Just my opinion.

Gassho2, meian st lh

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[Inshin]

Hi Ania,

The Yoga of Dreams is, I think, part of the Vajrayana sect of Tibetan Buddhism -- far outside the scope of Zen and zazen practice. I have learned from a Tibetan Lama who is from that particular tradition, but only some of the Bardo lessons, basic meditation, and tonglen practices.

Zen, and Soto Zen, is just Zen. Tibetan Buddhism is very different. It's kind of like comparing swimming to walking -- both are exercises, but are very different processes.

It is good to learn about different branches and cultures in Buddhism. But practicing different forms together can become confusing sometimes, in my experience. Just my opinion.

Gassho2, meian st lh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

It is interesting though to see that some practices such as Tonglen (Tibetan) and Metta (possibly pre-Buddha) leaked into modern Zen practice becoming "supplementary" and others didn't. Is it known if Dogen did Tonglen or Metta?

Gassho
Sat
Always curious
Ania

[Meian]

Zen use of Tonglen and metta do not involve practices or concepts such as astral projection, telepathy, or dream/energetic body work in other realms (that I know of). Zen version (in my opinion) basically offers compassion and resets the mind space at peace (more importantly) towards others -- and what is more crucial than creating more peace between human beings in this world?

Certain Tibetan Buddhist practices involve complex visualization techniques, along with a pantheon of deities and various beings, rituals, mantras, offerings. This is outside the scope of Zen.

Gassho2, meian st lh



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[Kokuu]

It is interesting though to see that some practices such as Tonglen (Tibetan) and Metta (possibly pre-Buddha) leaked into modern Zen practice becoming "supplementary" and others didn't. Is it known if Dogen did Tonglen or Metta?

As Meian said, the practices that have leaked into modern Zen have tended to be the less esoteric ones. Jundo allowed me to teach tonglen here as part of helping people with chronic illness and long-term pain, and American Zen teacher Norman Fischer wrote a book on Tibetan lojong (mind training) called Training in Compassion.

I very much doubt that Dōgen would have done tonglen, as it was largely a product of the Tibetan tradition, but I think it is near certain that he knew of metta since, as you say, it is at least as old as the Buddha himself and firmly part of mainstream dharma practice. Whether he did explicit metta practices I don't know but there is no mention that I know of. Jundo might have a better idea.

The man considered the second founder of Sōtō Zen, Keizan Jōkin (1264–1325), did have dream experiences, some of which I believe told him where to build temples and images to use for protection (read the Biography and Basic Information section on him here) I don't think he had a dream practice such as you are talking about but it does show that this kind of thing does appear in our tradition but the difference appears to be that they are not sought after in the same way as in Tibetan Dream Yoga (Milam) which is, as Meian says, part of vajrayana practice.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Inshin]

Apologies for going over 3 sentence in the following quote. I just wondered about your views about it?

"In the "Ten Stages Discourse" of the Avatamsaka Sutra we find:
“At the seventh level of sainthood, one has no obstructions in dreams, and can study at one’s will.”

This is referring to meditation. If one falls asleep during meditation and can still concentratedly study in one’s dream, then one has reached the seventh level of sainthood. A Bodhisattva who has reached this level can continue to meditate in dreams, although this may not be possible if he falls into a deep sleep.

But there is a level where this is possible even in a very deep sleep. We also find from "Ten Stages Discourse": “It may look like the Bodhisattva is sleeping, but really he is not.” No matter how deep his sleep, his mind is still as clear as if he were wide awake. If one can keep this mental state of clarity all the time, through waking and sleeping, then one has reached the level of complete freedom which is beyond the eighth level of sainthood. "


Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

Hello Ania,

Generally, in Soto Zen Buddhism, such passages are not taken so literally, and are seen as images of the religious mind seeking to express more subtle truths. When we sit Shikantaza, all "stages" are realized at once, and one sits as Buddha embodied. We realize that all of life is a dream of delusion and obstructions and, in our sitting, all obstructions fall away and only clarity remains. This is true "waking" from the delusions in which we typically live. "Study" here is probably better translated as something closer to "Practice," so only unobstructed Practice remains.

The reference to being awake and clear within the dream can be understood as our being awake even as we continue to live in the ordinary "dream-like" world of Samsara.

I would not take the description to literally refer to controlling ordinary dreams and doing one's schoolwork while dreaming. Instead of the true Wisdom and insight of someone advanced on the path, that instead seems like a small and silly talent to care about even if someone attains such lucid dreaming.

(Sorry, I dreamed more than 3 lines. )

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

I found an article that seems to be the source of your question, Ania,

http://www.buddhism.org/on-meditation/

The author seems to speak from a rather goal and stage oriented school of Korean Rinzai Buddhism, with rather literal descriptions of the idealized Bodhisattvas and Buddhas with miraculous powers. It is a very literal interpretation of the passage you quote.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

Hello Ania,

Generally, in Soto Zen Buddhism, such passages are not taken so literally, and are seen as images of the religious mind seeking to express more subtle truths. When we sit Shikantaza, all "stages" are realized at once, and one sits as Buddha embodied. We realize that all of life is a dream of delusion and obstructions and, in our sitting, all obstructions fall away and only clarity remains. This is true "waking" from the delusions in which we typically live. "Study" here is probably better translated as something closer to "Practice," so only unobstructed Practice remains.

The reference to being awake and clear within the dream can be understood as our being awake even as we continue to live in the ordinary "dream-like" world of Samsara.

I would not take the description to literally refer to controlling ordinary dreams and doing one's schoolwork while dreaming. Insteade of the true Wisdom and insight of someone advanced on the path, that instead seems like a small and silly talent to care about even if someone attains such lucid dreaming.

(Sorry, I dreamed more than 3 lines. )

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you��
It is good to clarify what is beneficial for the practice and what is/can be just a side effect, gimmick or a skill.
Gassho
Sat

[Getchi]

This is golden, thankyou Jundo.

[Geika]

As a side note-- and this is NOT part of our suggested practices at Treeleaf:

I am prone to lucid dreaming and am curious about sitting zazen in a dream, just to see what it's like and NOT to achieve any kind of special state.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

I am prone to lucid dreaming and am curious about sitting zazen in a dream, just to see what it's like and NOT to achieve any kind of special state.

What makes you assume that you are not doing so all the time?

(Did I blow your mind??? )

Gassho, J

STLah

[Geika]

What makes you assume that you are not doing so all the time?

(Did I blow your mind??? )

Gassho, J

STLah

My mind is blown that I did not think of that in the first place!

Gassho
Sat today, lah