Hearing bells

[Jundo]

Is atheism required to be a part of this Zendo? Sincere question.

Gassho, meian st

We have members who are Christian, Jewish, Islam, Atheist, Agnostic ... it makes no difference to Zen Practice.

People sometimes say that Buddha was atheist, but a close reading is that he side-stepped the question as not central to his teachings (and, anyway, was speaking about the Indian gods, never having heard of the Judeo-Christian version.

Zen is no more impacted by whether there is a "God" or no "God" than it is impacted by whether there is a table or no table in the same room where you sit Zazen. In either case ... table/no table or God/No God ... the sitting is the same. That is because we always sit as "what is" ... and if there is a table, that is "what is. If there is no table, that is "what is".

So, I often say ...

If there is a "God" ... whether in the Judeo-Christian way or some other, whether named "Allah" "Jehovah" "Thor" "Brahma" or "Stanley" ... I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

If there is no "God" "Allah" or "Stanley", or any source or creator or point to the universe at all, I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

I do not know if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

What brought that question up suddenly?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meian]

What brought that question up suddenly?

Of course, back in the olden days, people may have thought that it was "god" saying something to them, or changing what they saw and heard, but we know better now. Right?

I appreciated the podcast where you had indicated what you said above, that Zen is for everyone regardless of religious/spiritual beliefs. But this also confused me, so I asked. These are deeply personal experiences, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

, meian st

[Jundo]

Of course, back in the olden days, people may have thought that it was "god" saying something to them, or changing what they saw and heard, but we know better now. Right?

...t this also confused me, so I asked. These are deeply personal experiences, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Well, let us leave it an open question.

If it is god whispering in one's ear ... fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way.

And if it is just a migraine ... fetch water and chop wood (after the migraine passes, I guess ), seeking to live in a gentle way.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meian]

Well, let us leave it an open question.

If it is god whispering in one's ear ... fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way.

And if it is just a migraine ... fetch water and chop wood (after the migraine passes, I guess ), seeking to live in a gentle way.

Gassho, J

STLah

, meian st

[Bion]

I appreciated the podcast where you had indicated what you said above, that Zen is for everyone regardless of religious/spiritual beliefs. But this also confused me, so I asked. These are deeply personal experiences, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

, meian st

If I may butt in for a second. I had issues with this part back when I first started to learn about Zen. I was a Jehovah’s Witness for my entire adolescence and the beginning of my entire life.. The idea of an all powerful god has deep roots in my mind and it conditioned the way I approached and saw Zen.
What I’ve found after years of learning about Zen and sitting zazen and just accumulating experience and knowledge, is that whether one chooses to believe in a god or not has nothing to do with zen or the buddha or the practice. Jesus taught many of the things taught by the Buddha five centuries earlier.. That proves that the Buddha way and the way of love/kindness and sanctity preached by christianity meet at various points and probably go together. It is our own conditioned mind that makes it hard for us to let go of concepts we created or were given to us.

The way of zen is not about pleasing any gods, or about becoming worthy in the eyes of any supreme being. We chop wood, carry water, sit down, get up, eat, sleep and it’s all the Buddha way.


Sat Today

[serenewolf]

I used to hear my name called, i have good hearing so i would often be searching all around and asking everyone nearby if they had called me. They sound so real despite being an illusion.

Gassho
David
Sat

[Tairin]

I don’t know if migraines and auditory hallucinations are related or not but I get both of them frequently enough. For auditory hallucinations it is mostly like bells or a soft choir singing or whispered voices. I’ve dealt with those most of my life and used to attach significance or meaning to them. Now I don’t but I am just accustomed to living with them.

Interestingly, just over four years ago I suffered an injury that has left me mostly deaf in my left ear and partially deaf in my right. Sort of like the phantom leg phenomenon, I now struggle with whether what I hear is real or phantom sounds.

(My second response today that exceeded the 3 sentence guideline so I am done )


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Bion]

Would you say that certain beliefs conflict or at odds with the idea of No-Self, such as believing in an eternal soul? I mean I can think of ways that combine those ideas without conflicting, such as all souls being a manifestation of god (and there for not really being separate)... I feel many would disagree, but then again maybe not... Thoughts?


Evan,
Sat today!

IF a soul is immortal, comes from god and enters a body to leave it at death, then that soul lacks independent existence just like everything else, and is thus empty... a product of a particular cause. The idea of an eternal soul is also a concept that goes against the very Bible people say it comes from, as the scriptures say that death is the end of everything, the price to be paid for sin and that the dead can’t hear or see and know nothing, but they return to the dust or basic organic elements it was made of. Nothing contradicts any idea in Zen [emoji3526]

Sat Today

[gaurdianaq]

Thank you Jake and Jundo! This really helped!


Evan,
Sat today!

[Bion]

Thank you Jake and Jundo! This really helped!


Evan,
Sat today!

You are very welcome!

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Shinshi]

I hear a sound before waking up at times, 2 or three times a year, which pulls me up out of sleep more quickly. For me it is a dog barking just once, a bell sounds nicer. Thought it was one of our dogs for a while and then realized it wasn't.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Meian]

If I may butt in for a second. I had issues with this part back when I first started to learn about Zen. I was a Jehovah’s Witness for my entire adolescence and the beginning of my entire life.. The idea of an all powerful god has deep roots in my mind and it conditioned the way I approached and saw Zen.
What I’ve found after years of learning about Zen and sitting zazen and just accumulating experience and knowledge, is that whether one chooses to believe in a god or not has nothing to do with zen or the buddha or the practice. Jesus taught many of the things taught by the Buddha five centuries earlier.. That proves that the Buddha way and the way of love/kindness and sanctity preached by christianity meet at various points and probably go together. It is our own conditioned mind that makes it hard for us to let go of concepts we created or were given to us.

The way of zen is not about pleasing any gods, or about becoming worthy in the eyes of any supreme being. We chop wood, carry water, sit down, get up, eat, sleep and it’s all the Buddha way.


Sat Today

I was not referring specifically to Christianity, Jesus, etc., or any religion.

It is possible to hold a deep belief or knowing of Something greater than ourselves, yet not be fearful or feel "submission" to that Something, but feel a part of and connection to that Something.

Spirituality and connection to a Higher "Something" is not always about a Being that punishes or is dogmatic, nor does it need to be confined, boxed, or categorized into one of the known or labeled religions of the world. Sometimes what we experience has no name or label, but is still very alive, embracing, and real. The awareness that we are not alone, and that All That Exists comes from something bigger than ourselves.

I don't believe that "this is all there is" -- I believe there is something more. I speak for myself alone. And yes, this is all part of my Zen experience.

, meian st lh

[Jundo]

I moved a few posts from various current threads that mentioned the "Bardo" and "spirit/soul" in Soto Zen here:

COMBINED THREAD: Soto Zen, the 'Bardo,' and Spirit

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18042-COMBINED-THREAD-Soto-Zen-the-Bardo-and-Spirit

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

It is a good time to link to a recent discussion on Makyo ... the passing, usually harmless strange sensory experiences and the like that pop up sometimes in the quiet of Zazen. Older folks around here have read these before ...

In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. We are not used to the stillness and quiet of Zazen, and it lets certain memories, emotions, fears and like psychological states rise to the surface ... or allows some things (spots in our eyes that are always there even though not usually noticed, background sounds) to be noticed that are usually blocked out by all the noise and busyness in our heads, senses and around us.

If it is just once in awhile ... and if you are aware of this, and it was not too overwhelming ... then I do not think it cause for worry.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17884-Magic-Rice-Paper&p=264343&viewfull=1#post264343

Gassho, J

STLah

[Ryumon]

Spirituality and connection to a Higher "Something" is not always about a Being that punishes or is dogmatic, nor does it need to be confined, boxed, or categorized into one of the known or labeled religions of the world. Sometimes what we experience has no name or label, but is still very alive, embracing, and real. The awareness that we are not alone, and that All That Exists comes from something bigger than ourselves.

This "something" is Buddha nature; all things have Buddha nature. And we are not alone, we are connected to all things.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat