Split Thread: The Weirder Stuff

[Jundo]

... I remember reading a translation of Dogen's Shobogenzo I acquired during a Zen retreat at Mt. Shasta Abbey, California where the first few sections seemed very deep but before I knew it I was headlong in lavatory instructions about not making sordid noises in your stall and whatnot. I started to feel bogged down with the whole thing and didn't continue reading... so I'm wondering if you have any advice on getting through the weirder elements in Buddhist holy writ?

-Satoday-

Very easy: Keep the attitude that one is honoring tradition, so when in Rome (or Eiheiji monastery) bow like the Romans (or Eiheijians) bow, remember that this practice has elements of putting oneself into the ritual dance (and a dance does not need to "make sense" for its effects to fill the body), remember that this practice has elements of putting aside one's personal "likes and dislikes" in order to accept what one personally finds a bit not to one's taste ... remember that the beauty and power of some rituals and traditions only becomes clear after one has been doing them for awhile (although, alas, some never do! ) ... remember that some parts are just old religious superstition so no need to buy into it all hook line and sinker ...

... and, yes, just keep a sense of humor about the whole silly thing sometimes.

Gassho, J

STLah


PS - If it is okay, I may break this off as its own thread, because a very good question.

[A.J.]

Very easy: Keep the attitude that one is honoring tradition, so when in Rome (or Eiheiji monastery) bow like the Romans (or Eiheijians) bow, remember that this practice has elements of putting oneself into the ritual dance (and a dance does not need to "make sense" for its effects to fill the body), remember that this practice has elements of putting aside one's personal "likes and dislikes" in order to accept what one personally finds a bit not to one's taste ... remember that the beauty and power of some rituals and traditions only becomes clear after one has been doing them for awhile (although, alas, some never do! ) ... remember that some parts are just old religious superstition so no need to buy into it all hook line and sinker ...

... and, yes, just keep a sense of humor about the whole silly thing sometimes.

Gassho, J

STLah


PS - If it is okay, I may break this off as its own thread, because a very good question.

I would be interested in more elaboration if you would like to make this a thread unto itself. Strange monastic instructions coupled with what seemed like sectarian fear mongering in Dogen's writings started to put me off from reading him although I continued to bow, chant, meditate and participate according to the fashion I was surrounded by. Nevertheless it also seems to me that there was something substantial in Dogen so I'd like to figure out a way to read him despite those oddities.

Thanks,
Gassho.

[Kyoshin]

Dogen wrote for 13th century Japanese monks.
Not everything will apply here and now.
Even Shakyamuni had a few clunkers.
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[A.J.]

Dogen wrote for 13th century Japanese monks.
Not everything will apply here and now.
Even Shakyamuni had a few clunkers.
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I appreciate and agree with that point.
Do you think the Zen and Buddhist tradition more generally makes allowances for such a view?

-Gassho-

[Jundo]

I would be interested in more elaboration if you would like to make this a thread unto itself. Strange monastic instructions coupled with what seemed like sectarian fear mongering in Dogen's writings started to put me off from reading him although I continued to bow, chant, meditate and participate according to the fashion I was surrounded by. Nevertheless it also seems to me that there was something substantial in Dogen so I'd like to figure out a way to read him despite those oddities.

Thanks,
Gassho.

Well, Dogen was a 13th century medieval monk in a monastery prescribing practices for those living a rigid and ritual bound monastic practice. So, some of his ideas are just 13th century medieval, and what we might consider superstitious or quaint by modern standards. The monastic practices may be powerful for someone in a monastery, but not the person practicing in the office and suburbs (although just because something is old and ritualistic ... such as Oryoki sacred eating practice ... does not mean it is not powerful; Oryoki is truly a ballet to pour ourself into thus to discover one's self again).

I don't feel that Dogen was so sectarian, although preaching for the home team like any good football coach. I don't think he threatened anyone with fire and brimstone in hell if they did not follow his ways. I am sure he meant, however, that if you are a monastic who is going to follow his monastic ways, then go all in, not half-way.

Figure out the aspects of Dogen that have value in your life and practice, put aside the rest.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Quote Originally Posted by Kyoshin View Post
Dogen wrote for 13th century Japanese monks.
Not everything will apply here and now.
Even Shakyamuni had a few clunkers.
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I appreciate and agree with that point.
Do you think the Zen and Buddhist tradition more generally makes allowances for such a view?

-Gassho-

I have actually gotten in trouble with more conservative Buddhists sometimes for saying this, but I think that even Buddha ... the man who lived and taught, we believe, in iron age India some 2500 years ago ... was wrong about some things here and there, much as one might assume about an iron age man who saw the world through the knowledge of 2500 years ago. For example, the earth is not flat despite the traditional Buddhist teaching that it is, and maybe even more important teachings (such as on literal rebirth and Karma) are a little "quaint" in some of the details and descriptions found in the old Sutta books.

No problem, because the parts he got right are treasures and more than make up for it!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyoshin]

I have actually gotten in trouble with more conservative Buddhists sometimes for saying this, but I think that even Buddha ... the man who lived and taught, we believe, in iron age India some 2500 years ago ... was wrong about some things here and there, much as one might assume about an iron age man who saw the world through the knowledge of 2500 years ago. For example, the earth is not flat despite the traditional Buddhist teaching that it is, and maybe even more important teachings )such as on rebirth and Karma) are a little "quaint" in some of the details and descriptions found in the old Sutta books.

No problem, because the parts he got right are treasures and more than make up for it!

Gassho, J

STLah

I've also gotten in trouble for this. But then again I've also been accused of not being a "real" Buddhist because I don't believe that the wild stories in the Lotus Sutra, for example, are factual historical accounts to be believed at face value. *Shrug*

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[A.J.]

I have actually gotten in trouble with more conservative Buddhists sometimes for saying this, but I think that even Buddha ... the man who lived and taught, we believe, in iron age India some 2500 years ago ... was wrong about some things here and there, much as one might assume about an iron age man who saw the world through the knowledge of 2500 years ago. For example, the earth is not flat despite the traditional Buddhist teaching that it is, and maybe even more important teachings )such as on rebirth and Karma) are a little "quaint" in some of the details and descriptions found in the old Sutta books.

No problem, because the parts he got right are treasures and more than make up for it!

Gassho, J

STLah

The kind of demythologizing procedure you describe makes sense to me because we can't help but be modern people yet I wonder if some of the material relegated to a less relevant position, such as rebirth, is actually foundational to the original system. For instance meditation and no-self may have value on their own thus be able to survive modern scruples but the entire system of six realms, karma, rebirth and nirvana appear to be integral to Buddhist thought from the Pali canon onward. Turning these aspects into metaphors makes for a good poetic lens but something might be lost for us that was crucial to the last 2500 years of practice such as a belief in fully enlightened beings.

Do you think modern scruples discard anything actually important from Buddhism?

-Gassho-

Satlah

[A.J.]

I've also gotten in trouble for this. But then again I've also been accused of not being a "real" Buddhist because I don't believe that the wild stories in the Lotus Sutra, for example, are factual historical accounts to be believed at face value. *Shrug*

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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I suppose there's a committee that must decide who the real Buddhists are, lol. Nah, but reading a few old Zen texts I have sometimes found written in them this concern for the true Zen versus counterfeit Zen and true Buddhism versus counterfeit Buddhism. The irony to me is that Zen in it's day was considered by some to be a Buddhist heresy so I guess one man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy until the first man's heresy becomes established after which it becomes an orthodoxy that can proclaim heretical those who think they have it but don't....... oh enlightened machinations, lol.

Gassho.

[Kyoshin]

It's still considered heresy by some. Just the other day, I hear a Vietnamese monk describe Japanese Buddhism as "weak."
Shrug.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Jundo]

I've also gotten in trouble for this. But then again I've also been accused of not being a "real" Buddhist because I don't believe that the wild stories in the Lotus Sutra, for example, are factual historical accounts to be believed at face value. *Shrug*

The Lotus Sutra is a fictional creation, not the historical words of the Buddha in India 2500 years ago ...

... and yet, in the old days, the idea of "fiction vs. non-fiction" was less definite to the ancient mind (and even now, when we think that much of what we take to be "real" in the world exists between our ears alone according to Buddhist teachings), and the fact that "channeling" the Buddha could still be considered authentic in some sense if it has the wisdom of a Buddha ... all means that it is not so clear if the Lotus Sutra is just "fiction."

After all, if a work of "fiction" ... even Harry Potter ... contains some real "Truths," and valuable lessons, then it is "True" in such way.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

The kind of demythologizing procedure you describe makes sense to me because we can't help but be modern people yet I wonder if some of the material relegated to a less relevant position, such as rebirth, is actually foundational to the original system. For instance meditation and no-self may have value on their own thus be able to survive modern scruples but the entire system of six realms, karma, rebirth and nirvana appear to be integral to Buddhist thought from the Pali canon onward. Turning these aspects into metaphors makes for a good poetic lens but something might be lost for us that was crucial to the last 2500 years of practice such as a belief in fully enlightened beings.

Do you think modern scruples discard anything actually important from Buddhism?

-Gassho-

Satlah

Hi A.J.

I am a "take it or leave it" agnostic on very specific models of rebirth into future lives after death, preferring to let it take care of itself: If it happens it happens, if not then not, but in either cases live gently now. I do not know about hells after death, but I see people create them in this world and life, for themselves and those around them. If there are future lives, or not, the most vital pivot point of action is right now in this life ... so try to be good. I also sense that we are reborn, you and I, as every blade of grass, child and breeze, past present or future, and our actions for good or bad have lasting effects in this world.

It does not change my practice very much one way or the other. Of course, other Buddhists are free to believe what they will about rebirth, and to practice in their way, and I celebrate that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyoshin]

The Lotus Sutra is a fictional creation, not the historical words of the Buddha in India 2500 years ago ...

... and yet, in the old days, the idea of "fiction vs. non-fiction" was less definite to the ancient mind (and even now, when we think that much of what we take to be "real" in the world exists between our ears alone according to Buddhist teachings), and the fact that "channeling" the Buddha could still be considered authentic in some sense if it has the wisdom of a Buddha ... means that it is not so clear if the Lotus Sutra is just "fiction."

After all, if a work of "fiction" ... even Harry Potter ... contains some real "Truths," and valuable lessons, then it is "True" in such way.

Gassho, J

STLah

Personally, I've historically found "fiction" to be a very reliable source of "truth."

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Juki]

Dogen wrote for 13th century Japanese monks.
Not everything will apply here and now.
Even Shakyamuni had a few clunkers.
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

And yet, I just recently read a book called "Eat. Sleep. Sit.," written by a young Japanese man who spent a year at Eiheiji in the late eighties. It contains beautiful explanations of the manner in which the monks there continue to follow Dogen's instructions pretty much to the letter in these matters (including bathing and using the toilet). It also has some disturbing scenes of violence (junior monks being beaten or shoved down flights of stairs merely for looking senior monks in the eye) which I hope Jundo will tell us are n0 longer part of training.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

And yet, I just recently read a book called "Eat. Sleep. Sit.," written by a young Japanese man who spent a year at Eiheiji in the late eighties. It contains beautiful explanations of the manner in which the monks there continue to follow Dogen's instructions pretty much to the letter in these matters (including bathing and using the toilet). It also has some disturbing scenes of violence (junior monks being beaten or shoved down flights of stairs merely for looking senior monks in the eye) which I hope Jundo will tell us are n0 longer part of training.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

Well, I cannot say that they are "no longer part of training" because Eiheiji has aspect of marine boot camp and college frat pledging. I did not train in such a place, so I only know from outside. As in a frat or boot camp, they use such psychological means to break down the self, then to build it back again. I personally don't believe in such kinds of training.

Gassho, J

STLah