Split Thread: The Weirder Stuff

[Amelia]

I am a "take it or leave it" agnostic on very specific models of rebirth into future lives after death, preferring to let it take care of itself: If it happens it happens, if not then not, but in either cases live gently now. I do not know about hells after death, but I see people create them in this world and life, for themselves and those around them. If there are future lives, or not, the most vital pivot point of action is right now in this life ... so try to be good. I also sense that we are reborn, you and I, as every blade of grass, child and breeze, past present or future, and our actions for good or bad have lasting effects in this world.

It does not change my practice very much one way or the other. Of course, other Buddhists are free to believe what they will about rebirth, and to practice in their way, and I celebrate that.

I feel the same. Many people feel they must decide where they stand-- I think fear is a factor in this thinking. Deciding gives us a sense of control over this changing life.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

And yet, I just recently read a book called "Eat. Sleep. Sit.," written by a young Japanese man who spent a year at Eiheiji in the late eighties. It contains beautiful explanations of the manner in which the monks there continue to follow Dogen's instructions pretty much to the letter in these matters (including bathing and using the toilet). It also has some disturbing scenes of violence (junior monks being beaten or shoved down flights of stairs merely for looking senior monks in the eye) which I hope Jundo will tell us are n0 longer part of training.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

As one more note: I have heard it said by more than a few older Zen priests, and older Japanese in general, that the younger generations are just not as tough and "samurai" as those of prior generations, and I think it true from my observations here over 30 years. The older Japanese from the 40s to 60s or before were generally tough and self-sacrificing and would just take such corporal punishment even in the regular schools (e.g., all the boys in elementary schools here used to wear short pants even in winter in chilly classrooms to "toughen the spirit"), and modern business managers and monks too complain that things started to change around the late 60s and 70s, and really these days they can't demand as much of younger folks, and they can't treat them the same as in that book ... written about his experiences in the early 90s. However, on average, I am still surprised how diligent and well-behaved the average Japanese young person is whom I encounter even today, so it is all relative. And I do not believe in violence and corporal punishment, so I think that doing away with that is a good thing.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Kyoshin: "It's still considered heresy by some. Just the other day, I hear a Vietnamese monk describe Japanese Buddhism as "weak."
Shrug."

Perhaps *shrug* is an apt and Zen response.

Gassho
-Satlah-

[A.J.]

The Lotus Sutra is a fictional creation, not the historical words of the Buddha in India 2500 years ago ...

... and yet, in the old days, the idea of "fiction vs. non-fiction" was less definite to the ancient mind (and even now, when we think that much of what we take to be "real" in the world exists between our ears alone according to Buddhist teachings), and the fact that "channeling" the Buddha could still be considered authentic in some sense if it has the wisdom of a Buddha ... all means that it is not so clear if the Lotus Sutra is just "fiction."

After all, if a work of "fiction" ... even Harry Potter ... contains some real "Truths," and valuable lessons, then it is "True" in such way.

Gassho, J

STLah

Any thoughts on how we might thresh out the words of the historical Buddha?
Some of the liberal interpretations of suttas and sutras remind me of what happened with liberal Christianity because of the advent of biblical criticism whereby a semblance of the Christian faith was preserved but it looked very different than what folks were used to in their traditions.

Gassho,
Sat.

[A.J.]

And yet, I just recently read a book called "Eat. Sleep. Sit.," written by a young Japanese man who spent a year at Eiheiji in the late eighties. It contains beautiful explanations of the manner in which the monks there continue to follow Dogen's instructions pretty much to the letter in these matters (including bathing and using the toilet). It also has some disturbing scenes of violence (junior monks being beaten or shoved down flights of stairs merely for looking senior monks in the eye) which I hope Jundo will tell us are n0 longer part of training.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

I think too many rules and regulations in that kind of context gets pretty OCD and potentially authoritarian.

[A.J.]

Well, I cannot say that they are "no longer part of training" because Eiheiji has aspect of marine boot camp and college frat pledging. I did not train in such a place, so I only know from outside. As in a frat or boot camp, they use such psychological means to break down the self, then to build it back again. I personally don't believe in such kinds of training.

Gassho, J

STLah

Hazing doesn't seem like the best way to see no-self. It would probably just replace it with an institutionalized, conformist, religious self.

[A.J.]

I feel the same. Many people feel they must decide where they stand-- I think fear is a factor in this thinking. Deciding gives us a sense of control over this changing life.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

That and interacting with schools of thought and communities that tend to require some sort of allegiance. Buddhism wouldn't automatically be exempt from that kind of implicit pressure to make a choice regarding belief in Buddhist material. For instance, in my experiences with Shambhala there is a way in which one might feel out of place for questioning some of the more magical ideas in Tibetan Buddhism.

Gassho,
Satlah.

[Jundo]

Any thoughts on how we might thresh out the words of the historical Buddha?
Some of the liberal interpretations of suttas and sutras remind me of what happened with liberal Christianity because of the advent of biblical criticism whereby a semblance of the Christian faith was preserved but it looked very different than what folks were used to in their traditions.

Gassho,
Sat.

Hi A.J.,

I am not an "essentialist," believing that when one peels back the layers of a flower to get to the source of the beauty of the flower, one is actually simply missing the flower. When one has a garden of beautiful flowers, each grows in its own way. It is a mistake to think that the only true flower is the original seed from which all sprang.

Also, like medicine, not every formulation of Buddhism is right for all people. What is medicine for me in certain dose may be poison to another or just not helpful. Some people may do better practicing as strict monastics, some may do better practicing a very traditional Buddhism based on ritual and devotion, some may take a more modern approach.

I also believe that even Buddhism can grow, change, flourish, evolve and improve over time ... much as we who fly in a jet can thank the Wright Brothers for their glider on Kitty Hawk. That original glider, although genius, only gets us so far. Buddhism has changed over time, and some of the changes (not all) are certainly good: Greater equality of women and opportunity to practice for lay people in general, a better understanding of how the universe and human body is put together through science and medicine, just to name a few.

Alas, we do not know if the Buddha actually ever lived and, even if he did (I am pretty sure that the stories have a historical core), many of the stories we have about his life seem to be later creations by some inspired tale tellers. (However, as I said, it can still be a tale with many valuable "Truths.") The Suttas were written down hundreds of years after he is said to have died, although I believe that an oral tradition can have amazing accuracy according to some research I have read. Even so, he was a man of 2500 years ago in Iron Age India, so some of his beliefs are quaint while others are precious. Mahayana Buddhism and Zen, and now modern more westernized Zen Buddhism, have changed or added to some of that (and do not emphasize other aspects), but it is still good medicine.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

(Pardon, needed more that 3 sentences for this one).

PS - AJ, would you mind to sign your posts with a human first name, and put a human face photo to accompany your posts? It helps keep things around here a little more human? Thank you.

[A.J.]

Hi A.J.,

I am not an "essentialist," believing that when one peels back the layers of a flower to get to the source of the beauty of the flower, one is actually simply missing the flower. When one has a garden of beautiful flowers, each grows in its own way. It is a mistake to think that the only true flower is the original seed from which all sprang.

Also, like medicine, not every formulation of Buddhism is right for all people. What is medicine for me in certain dose may be poison to another or just not helpful. Some people may do better practicing as strict monastics, some may do better practicing a very traditional Buddhism based on ritual and devotion, some may take a more modern approach.

I also believe that even Buddhism can grow, change, flourish, evolve and improve over time ... much as we who fly in a jet can thank the Wright Brothers for their glider on Kitty Hawk. That original glider, although genius, only gets us so far. Buddhism has changed over time, and some of the changes (not all) are certainly good: Greater equality of women and opportunity to practice for lay people in general, a better understanding of how the universe and human body is put together through science and medicine, just to name a few.

Alas, we do not know if the Buddha actually ever lived and, even if he did (I am pretty sure that the stories have a historical core), many of the stories we have about his life seem to be later creations by some inspired tale tellers. (However, as I said, it can still be a tale with many valuable "Truths.") The Suttas were written down hundreds of years after he is said to have died, although I believe that an oral tradition can have amazing accuracy according to some research I have read. Even so, he was a man of 2500 years ago in Iron Age India, so some of his beliefs are quaint while others are precious. Mahayana Buddhism and Zen, and now modern more westernized Zen Buddhism, have changed or added to some of that (and do not emphasize other aspects), but it is still good medicine.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

(Pardon, needed more that 3 sentences for this one).

PS - AJ, would you mind to sign your posts with a human first name, and put a human face photo to accompany your posts? It helps keep things around here a little more human? Thank you.

I'm not particularly essentialist either because I appreciate the evolution of things. I think I was mainly trying to figure out the criteria being used to decide that some traditionally important Buddhist teachings are relatively expendable while others aren't. Do you have such a criteria?

P.S. Oh I didn't realize that was a thing so no problem.

-Andrew-
Sattoday.

[Jundo]

I'm not particularly essentialist either because I appreciate the evolution of things. I think I was mainly trying to figure out the criteria being used to decide that some traditionally important Buddhist teachings are relatively expendable while others aren't. Do you have such a criteria?

Well, since there are 10,000 good flavors of Buddhism in the world today, people obviously have found 10,000 answers to the question. There are certain teachings that almost all share, however, such as the insights into Dukkha and a path of cure for Dukkha, Impermanence and Non-self, the need to leap past the little "self" with all its mental desires, frictions and divides, the need to be free of the poisons of excess desires, anger and violence, and divided thinking in ignorance, others too.

Beyond that, one can mix the medicine many ways: Do you wish or need to be a celibate monastic living a life of strict regulation or out-in-the-world and treading carefully, are you a believer in many of the more magical and fantastic elements of the religion or rather modern and skeptical of such bits, do you wish to sit Shikantaza Zazen or Introspect on a Koan or engage in Vipassana or head to Tibet and visualize ferocious manifestations of Buddhas in one's meditation (or not meditate at all, and simply have faith in Amida Buddha), the many medicines suited to different patients. I suppose that, ultimately, one must simply find what resonates in one's heart and suits one's own illness (or perhaps just put stock in some teacher or Guru who will tell you what's right and why everybody else is wrong! ).

Gassho, J

STLah


PS - A lovely face, Andrew!

[A.J.]

Well, since there are 10,000 good flavors of Buddhism in the world today, people obviously have found 10,000 answers to the question. There are certain teachings that almost all share, however, such as the insights into Dukkha and a path of cure for Dukkha, Impermanence and Non-self, the need to leap past the little "self" with all its mental desires, frictions and divides, the need to be free of the poisons of excess desires, anger and violence, and divided thinking in ignorance, others too.

Beyond that, one can mix the medicine many ways: Do you wish or need to be a celibate monastic living a life of strict regulation or out-in-the-world and treading carefully, are you a believer in many of the more magical and fantastic elements of the religion or rather modern and skeptical of such bits, do you wish to sit Shikantaza Zazen or Introspect on a Koan or engage in Vipassana or head to Tibet and visualize ferocious manifestations of Buddhas in one's meditation (or not meditate at all, and simply have faith in Amida Buddha), the many medicines suited to different patients. I suppose that, ultimately, one must simply find what resonates in one's heart and suits one's own illness (or perhaps just put stock in some teacher or Guru who will tell you what's right and why everybody else is wrong! ).

Gassho, J

STLah


PS - A lovely face, Andrew!

I suppose personal suitability is what it ultimately comes down to whether devotees of a certain way above others admit it or not. I like Zen as a foundation which includes the option of informing practice by Suttas and Sutras. What I read and listen to from Tibetan Buddhism I also enjoy in a somewhat supplementary fashion but feel I would have a hard time taking it up because of some extra magical qualities and the emphasis on gurus.

P.S. Ah shucks, I just took a quick snap with my Chromebook camera to fill in that humanity.

Gassho,

-Andrew-
Sat

[Jundo]

I suppose personal suitability is what it ultimately comes down to whether devotees of a certain way above others admit it or not. I like Zen as a foundation which includes the option of informing practice by Suttas and Sutras. What I read and listen to from Tibetan Buddhism I also enjoy in a somewhat supplementary fashion but feel I would have a hard time taking it up because of some extra magical qualities and the emphasis on gurus.

P.S. Ah shucks, I just took a quick snap with my Chromebook camera to fill in that humanity.

Gassho,

I will say this: What is presented as "Theravada Buddhism" and its interpretation of Suttas, teachings and practices, is not necessarily much more "original" or "closer to what the Buddha taught" than the Mahayana. Why? Well, simply that, from early on and through the centuries, Theravada Buddhism developed through commentaries and interpretations of the Suttas, additions to stories, the introduction of new teachings and practices sometimes borrow from Brahman or Hindu religions many of which may be quite different from the original flavor of "what the Buddha taught" (one small example maybe teachings on the "higher" and more "other worldly" Jhanas to be attained in meditation beyond the first four, which seem like very intense mental concentrations of the kind which the Buddha may have rejected, and even the interpretation of the first 4 Jhana as requiring intense concentration states of some kind ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/The_Experience_of_Samadhi.html?id=lQ_ZzFgJ1AwC&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y

... PLUS the introduction of various rituals, deities, emphasis on magical abilities and the like that seem to be more from the surround South Asian cultures than Buddhist in origin), and many of these changes happened in just more recent centuries (such as many modern interpretations of Insight meditation from Burma and such which are not very traditional at all https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GMEJ0FO...ng=UTF8&btkr=1 ). So, everything flowered and everything changed through the centuries.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I will say this: What is presented as "Theravada Buddhism" and its interpretation of Suttas, teachings and practices, is not necessarily much more "original" or "closer to what the Buddha taught" than the Mahayana. Why? Well, simply that, from early on and through the centuries, Theravada Buddhism developed through commentaries and interpretations of the Suttas, additions to stories, the introduction of new teachings and practices sometimes borrow from Brahman or Hindu religions many of which may be quite different from the original flavor of "what the Buddha taught" (one small example maybe teachings on the "higher" and more "other worldly" Jhanas to be attained in meditation beyond the first four, which seem like very intense mental concentrations of the kind which the Buddha may have rejected, and even the interpretation of the first 4 Jhana as requiring intense concentration states of some kind ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/The_Experience_of_Samadhi.html?id=lQ_ZzFgJ1AwC&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y

... PLUS the introduction of various rituals, deities, emphasis on magical abilities and the like that seem to be more from the surround South Asian cultures than Buddhist in origin), and many of these changes happened in just more recent centuries (such as many modern interpretations of Insight meditation from Burma and such which are not very traditional at all https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GMEJ0FO...ng=UTF8&btkr=1 ). So, everything flowered and everything changed through the centuries.

Gassho, J

STLah

From some of the Pali canon I've read I especially like the Sutta Nipata and the Dhammapada because there is a certain practicality I find in their approach. I read the Lotus Sutra and aside from the anecdote about the children in the burning house (which is incredibly practical in approach) a lot of it, I'm sorry to say, read like celestial hoo-hah. Are there any ancient Mahayana or Zen texts of a particularly practical import that you would be able to point me to?

Gassho,

-Andrew-
Sat

[Jundo]

From some of the Pali canon I've read I especially like the Sutta Nipata and the Dhammapada because there is a certain practicality I find in their approach. I read the Lotus Sutra and aside from the anecdote about the children in the burning house (which is incredibly practical in approach) a lot of it, I'm sorry to say, read like celestial hoo-hah. Are there any ancient Mahayana or Zen texts of a particularly practical import that you would be able to point me to?

Gassho,

-Andrew-
Sat

Well, works like the Lotus Sutra are full of parables and mythological imagery, much of which has value in imparting lessons regarding our Buddhist Practice as well as daily life. For example, the Lotus Sutra has a story about a man who has a precious jewel sewn into his coat of which he is unaware, meaning that there is a precious nature to life that we all possess but may ignore while wandering lost in this day to day world.

However, the Sutras are just inspiring stories, and not the centerpiece of our practice in our Zen way "beyond words and letters." We read Sutras to be inspired by them, but we see through them, and are not overly trapped in their words.

Frankly, if you want "practical import" in your Zen texts (and not merely the cosmic), I would turn to almost any of the books by 90% of modern Zen teachers. These days, most Zen teachers (such as the great Joko Beck: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0 ) write about ordinary life. My upcoming book, Zen Master's Dance, has elements of the timeless and the "9 to 5" workaday. A book by Dogen that I might recommend to you which has aspects of both the mythological and the totally practical is this one, among my Top 5 best Zen books of all time: https://www.amazon.com/Dogen-ebook/d...al-text&sr=1-1 )

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[A.J.]

Well, works like the Lotus Sutra are full of parables and mythological imagery, much of which has value in imparting lessons regarding our Buddhist Practice as well as daily life. For example, the Lotus Sutra has a story about a man who has a precious jewel sewn into his coat of which he is unaware, meaning that there is a precious nature to life that we all possess but may ignore while wandering lost in this day to day world.

However, the Sutras are just inspiring stories, and not the centerpiece of our practice in our Zen way "beyond words and letters." We read Sutras to be inspired by them, but we see through them, and are not overly trapped in their words.

Frankly, if you want "practical import" in your Zen texts (and not merely the cosmic), I would turn to almost any of the books by 90% of modern Zen teachers. These days, most Zen teachers (such as the great Joko Beck: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0 ) write about ordinary life. My upcoming book, Zen Master's Dance, has elements of the timeless and the "9 to 5" workaday. A book by Dogen that I might recommend to you which has aspects of both the mythological and the totally practical is this one, among my Top 5 best Zen books of all time: https://www.amazon.com/Dogen-ebook/d...al-text&sr=1-1 )

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

All interesting considerations. I like the "beyond words and letters" approach but also look for practical wisdom in a variety of words and letters from a variety of fields. I'll look more into some of those books.

Thanks,
Gassho,

-Andrew-
Satlah.