A TREELEAF EXPERIMENT: Three Sacred Sentences (Please Join Poll)

[Jundo]

UPDATE: PLAN DROPPED

Dear All,

Last minute, I have been persuaded by several voices that I trust that the "Three Sentences" policy should be dropped. So, we will not be moving forward with this because of the feelings expressed. Perhaps it can be revived from time to time as a practice, but not as a standing request. The feeling seems to be that it would just be too restrictive on the ability of people to communicate.

I have to say that I still disagree, but I also believe in going along with consensus and popular feeling in the Sangha about how we structure things. In my view, a Zen group is a place where we earnestly try to drop words, ideas and complex analysis, and the "three sacred sentences" were helping us do so. It did not completely prevent us from saying more when needed, because we could just put a "sorry, needed to say more this time" at the end (just as I am going to do with this post). Even if it sometimes caused long sentences with too many colons ";" (and parenthesis) it nonetheless caused us to reflect on what is truly necessary to say, and not take our thoughts lightly (and was not to apply in our "no words" book club, art circle, Precept discussion for Jukai and the like where some depth of thought and words is more welcome). On the other hand, others felt that it is too forceful, and a simple reminder from time to time would be better.

I felt it was really an effective practice for us, but I also believe in democracy. So, unless there is suddenly a flood of voices the other way who feel that the experiment should be kept, the plan is shelved, perhaps to be revived as a short-term practice from time to time.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

(sorry, needed more than three sentences this time)

[Meitou]

UPDATE: PLAN DROPPED

Dear All,

Last minute, I have been persuaded by several voices that I trust that the "Three Sentences" policy should be dropped. So, we will not be moving forward with this because of the feelings expressed. Perhaps it can be revived from time to time as a practice, but not as a standing request. The feeling seems to be that it would just be too restrictive on the ability of people to communicate.

I have to say that I still disagree, but I also believe in going along with consensus and popular feeling in the Sangha about how we structure things. In my view, a Zen group is a place where we earnestly try to drop words, ideas and complex analysis, and the "three sacred sentences" were helping us do so. It did not completely prevent us from saying more when needed, because we could just put a "sorry, needed to say more this time" at the end (just as I am going to do with this post). Even if it sometimes caused long sentences with too many colons ";" (and parenthesis) it nonetheless caused us to reflect on what is truly necessary to say, and not take our thoughts lightly (and was not to apply in our "no words" book club, art circle, Precept discussion for Jukai and the like where some depth of thought and words is more welcome). On the other hand, others felt that it is too forceful, and a simple reminder from time to time would be better.

I felt it was really an effective practice for us, but I also believe in democracy. So, unless there is suddenly a flood of voices the other way who feel that the experiment should be kept, the plan is shelved, perhaps to be revived as a short-term practice from time to time.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

(sorry, needed more than three sentences this time)

SO disappointing. And 'several voices' do not a democratic decision make so perhaps there should be a poll?
Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Onka]

SO disappointing. And 'several voices' do not a democratic decision make so perhaps there should be a poll?
Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

Polls are hardly democratic and only serve to isolate and silence. Consensus is the only truly democratic process however just because practice has been reversed doesn't mean those of us who liked it can't continue. I'd also surmise that consensus was reached by the Priests and Unsui who are definitely trusted voices. Jundo has no duty to consult us on things like this. If we feel particularly strongly we can advocate for a reversal on the reversal which was a reversal on the original short term trial.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Seikan]

I agree that it is a difficult policy to enforce across all areas of the forum, and therefore we end up with too many exceptions to the rule. That said, I do think it is a very worthwhile practice to employ from time to time. Perhaps we can choose to enforce it for only a week at time at certain times of year (around certain holidays or other events?).

I could also see it being something we could each choose to do as an individual practice at certain times of year (Ango, etc.).

Gassho,
Rob

-st-


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[gaurdianaq]

So just a thought, but what if we added a plugin of sort that detects if you have a rather long post, and asks you to confirm before you hit submit. An extra nudge to think about if you really needed to say all that was said. I can't imagine it would be hard to find a plugin for vbulletin that checks the length of a post and spawns a little pop up dialog, and if such a thing doesn't exist I can't imagine it would be hard to write, if people liked the idea I could try and do a bit of research into vBulletin plugins.


Evan,
Sat today!

[Kokuu]

I agree that it is a difficult policy to enforce across all areas of the forum, and therefore we end up with too many exceptions to the rule. That said, I do think it is a very worthwhile practice to employ from time to time. Perhaps we can choose to enforce it for only a week at time at certain times of year (around certain holidays or other events?).

I think that is what a lot of us felt behind the scenes, Rob, as well as the difficulty of answering questions from members in such a short space.

But, we are exploring ideas of how we can still emphasise brevity in terms of using as few words as possible to say what you need (and Evan's pop-up box type plan is one of those that came up!), while not enforcing a set number of sentences, words or characters.

Ango is definitely a good time for this to be a individual commitment, as we rest in greater silence, and if it becomes the approach of many that sets the tone for the whole sangha.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Bion]

UPDATE: PLAN DROPPED

Dear All,

Last minute, I have been persuaded by several voices that I trust that the "Three Sentences" policy should be dropped. So, we will not be moving forward with this because of the feelings expressed. Perhaps it can be revived from time to time as a practice, but not as a standing request. The feeling seems to be that it would just be too restrictive on the ability of people to communicate.

I have to say that I still disagree, but I also believe in going along with consensus and popular feeling in the Sangha about how we structure things. In my view, a Zen group is a place where we earnestly try to drop words, ideas and complex analysis, and the "three sacred sentences" were helping us do so. It did not completely prevent us from saying more when needed, because we could just put a "sorry, needed to say more this time" at the end (just as I am going to do with this post). Even if it sometimes caused long sentences with too many colons ";" (and parenthesis) it nonetheless caused us to reflect on what is truly necessary to say, and not take our thoughts lightly (and was not to apply in our "no words" book club, art circle, Precept discussion for Jukai and the like where some depth of thought and words is more welcome). On the other hand, others felt that it is too forceful, and a simple reminder from time to time would be better.

I felt it was really an effective practice for us, but I also believe in democracy. So, unless there is suddenly a flood of voices the other way who feel that the experiment should be kept, the plan is shelved, perhaps to be revived as a short-term practice from time to time.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

(sorry, needed more than three sentences this time)

I too thought about whether it was a beneficial thing or not when I saw your post. It does serve as a really fantastic exercise of restraint and of efficiency of vocabulary and clarity, although I’m not sure how many actually ponder just how few words are needed to get one’s point across and how many are trying to figure out ways to make sentences longer to fit in everything they want to say. The issue I can find is that since the sangha is online, and we all live in different parts of the world and are all active at different times, many might feel a need for more socializing and more fellowship aside from the scheduled practice and that translates to more conversations happening which can be challenging when limited to three sentences, even when that rule is slightly flexible.

SatToday lah

[Tairin]

I liked the 3 sentence guideline and I will endeavour to continue to follow it where possible.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Doshin]

I liked the 3 sentence guideline and I will endeavour to continue to follow it where possible.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

Same here because I think it good practice for me.

Doshin
St

[Jundo]

Polls are hardly democratic and only serve to isolate and silence.

How is that, Onka?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

I personally don't read a post word for word if it is too long. I may read the beginning and last part slow but speed through the rest (speed reading). It's a technique learned for technical reading and I use it for everything I read (I have not read a medical article word for word since medical school and the abstract does a great job of summarizing the contents).

So, posts should not be limited in length at all. If the reader is inclined to read word for word of a post then it's up to the reader to do so. I am sure Jundo speeds reads too if you think about it due to the repetitive nature of questions that come up and his repetitive answers and lack of time on his part.

Gassho, ST

[Jundo]

... I have not read a medical article word for word since medical school and the abstract does a great job of summarizing the contents...

Well, as long as you get the important bits! I always worry that my doctor was asleep in class the day they discussed my syndrome in medical school.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Amelia]

I will still be trying to uphold the shorter posts for myself, unless the need for longer arises. Anybody who enjoys the challenge of brevity can do so.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[A.J.]

I'm new at this but have enjoyed the three sentence rule myself. At time's I've had to stretch a sentence or two and at other times have left nuance out that would require more elaboration, yet the need for brevity has been a thoughtful exercise. All in all, if you ask me, I am in favor of keeping it around as a soft rule (guideline) that is nevertheless taken seriously even though it isn't an absolute requirement.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Gareth]

I think all this, even the extent to which our views are collected or valued, is up to the people running the Sangha, as the rule in question seems zen-related. It's nice to know that shorter posts and responses are just as valued, though.

Gassho,
Gareth
Sat today