Life after disappointment

[robert]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Stephanie,

Many of your posts have been very helpful to me, clearing up my own spiritual/philosophical knots. So it's upsetting that the insight and generosity which you extend to others is not helping you as well. The best I can say, as a newcomer here and a complete stranger, is that your presence is appreciated, every day, and I hope you are able to find a way to be as good a caretaker to yourself as you obviously are to others.

I never thought I'd be saying this, but in a way, I now wish I'd never set out on this path. Every way that my engagement with the Dharma has affected my life choices has led me further and further away from any sort of safety, solace, or comfort. And I used to think that was a good thing, but now that I confront the fact that there's no pot of gold at the end of this long, exhausting rainbow, at least not for me, I see no point in all the loss that staying on this path required of me. My neurochemistry may be responsible for the emotional tone of my life, but I have the Dharma, and Zen practice, to thank for taking away my ability to hope for redemption and believe in anything transcendent.

I read somewhere that if the path does not lead you towards happiness, solace, the cessation of dukkha, all the good stuff, it may be that you've chosen the wrong vehicle. You are much farther along in your practice than me, so I guess you've explored the many "vehicles" out there and made your pick of what's out there. Maybe you can invent your own vehicle. That's what Shinran did. He was convinced of his total incapacity to follow the path. "Hell is my only home," he said, and then developed a Buddhist practice for those who felt the same way. It's not my intention to advocate Jodo Shinshu on a Soto Zen site...just to say that the position of extreme doubt you are in can be productive as well as distressing.

It wasn't my understanding that Zen is supposed to kill our urge for "something transcendent"; transcendence, at least to my naive eyes, appears to be one of the basic assumptions underlying Zen. Otherwise how could Mind function in the way Zen masters describe? Yes, we focus on the here and now, on the wood and the water, the broken light fixture and the leaking faucet, but not because we think we're all equally meaningless, but because the cosmos is sentient. And sure, finally we go beyond the duality of "sentient" and "non-sentient" but that requires enlightenment, I would think. In the meantime...

You know, I think if I'm being honest, at the end of the day, as much as I sincerely wanted truth, what I wanted as much as anything was for people to love me. And I thought maybe if I was good enough, or enlightened enough, I'd finally discover the secret to being loved. And it was all wrong, because even if you do become a better person, people don't love you for it. I thought by looking for love in Buddhist circles I would at least be guaranteed some measure of compassion and understanding. But if anything, it's been the opposite.

Tell me about it! When I studied music, I thought I'd be surrounded by, wow, artists and people with wonderful souls, not neurotic careerists. Then I went to creative writing school. Then I went into a Ph.D program. Must be a glutton for punishment. At least by the time I got to Buddhism, I was jaded enough not to entertain expectations. Actually, thinking this way is looking to externals and dooming ourselves to disappointment. But I don't have to tell you that.

The greatest love and kindness I've been shown has come from anywhere but Buddhists (though you folks here are a noticeable exception--at the very least, you've been kind and patient and supportive), whereas for all they could pontificate about compassion, the Buddhists I've known have had a shocking capacity to treat other people like they're nothing. The "compassion" and "goodness" is a show to prove some point to others about themselves, but when it came down to it, those people had no problem turning their backs.

Haven't had any experience with a non-virtual sangha (this is my first experience of Buddhism as anything but a solo practice), but I don't doubt what you're saying is true. People usually don't turn to "the religion thing"unless prompted by affliction. And unfortunately affliction also tends to make us self-absorbed. It's the airplane oxygen mask principle -- gotta grab yours first.

And I look at the world out there, all the people in so much pain and trouble who've got no one, who don't have family and friends who are there for them, and who even us social workers usually ultimately abandon because that's the way the system goes... Yeah, you could gloss over all of this with some sort of cosmic justification for how it's all really beautiful and meaningful on some level, but the simple human truth is that it isn't. People suffer and die alone, they look other people in the face and other peopl look away -- I often find myself one of the people who looks away, because if you responded to every call for help on the streets of New York you'd go bankrupt and lose your job and everything else... It is this way for so many people, the people in our institutions, our homeless shelters, our jails, even our schools, workplaces, homes... and even if it is possible for a person to attain some sort of enlightenment that takes the sting out of our existential situation, what then of all the people who suffer and die without that?

I know this is a really obvious thing to say, but the irony here is that you're describing dukkha, the very problem that Buddhism was supposed to address. Buddhism acknowledges dukkha is unavoidable. You would know better than I whether the practice outlined by Sakyamuni has helped you. For me, it's too early to tell.

if there's no God, no transcendence, no cosmic order underlying all of this, it means that all of these people suffer and die alone for no reason. No one will ever hold them and tell them that it's okay.

But where in Buddhism is it taught there is no transcendence or cosmic order underlying all of this, or that people suffer for no reason? Everything I've come across suggests the opposite. Maybe our practice of Buddhism as Western intellectuals is too "sophisticated" for our own good. Millions of ordinary suffering people go to the temple, light incense and ask the bodhisattvas for help. It's just karmic destiny to be born into an environment or positionality in which it's hard to overcome skeptical doubt. Just something we have to accept -- goes along with the more pleasant aspects of here and now, such as scientific knowledge, internet, I-pods, etc.

I haven't seen a damn shred of anything in the Soto worldview that addresses this need. Saying that a person can experience wonder in the world is great and all, but what about all the people out there who don't get to that point? If you don't believe in some sort of soul that continues beyond death, it means that you have to accept that a lot of people out there just lead sad lives and die.

This is the crux of the problem, isn't it? I personally am coming from a materialist/skeptical background and for a long time didn't want to hear anything about "afterlife" or "rebirth". But the more I learn about Buddhism, the more I see how such teachings are essential, for the reasons you describe. Whether we take them literally, devotionally, philosophically or figuratively is not so important. I also see that my resistance is a kind of intellectual bigotry, steeped in unexamined assumptions. There are plenty of reasons to doubt a purely materialist explanation for consciousness, whether or not things work exactly to the specifications laid out in ancient Buddhist sutras. You might find Douglas Hofstadter's work interesting -- a rational, science-grounded, 21st century argument for the "soul". The choice, to paraphrase your own words, isn't between a) some ultra-literal, empircally testable, neuroscience-friendly view of these questions or b) nihilism.

Have you read Thurman's "Infinite Life"? What did you think of it?

How the hell do you live with that? I feel sorry for myself sometimes, but it's really the thought that so many people out there who have suffered just like me, all the people out there who have suffered far worse than me, and who won't be lifted up in some way, that is the real killer.

But how do we know they aren't being lifted up? On what basis do you say that? How do suffering people that you know find solace?

Gassho, Rob

[Jundo]

Re: Life after disappointment

I really appreciate all the heartfelt thoughts, empathy, and advice you all offer here. And Chet, in your kidding comment, you hit on something--I feel guilty about finding myself doing this to you all repeatedly. I come and post the same sort of stuff over and over again, and you all try to help, and sometimes I feel a little better, but usually all your efforts seem wasted on me as I languish in the same emotional state. I can only imagine how frustrating and annoying this can be. It was mentioned in one of my classes that you know you're dealing with a depressed person when you want to reach out, grab them by the shoulders, and shake them!

All I can offer in return for your efforts is to assure you all it does help, even when it doesn't seem to--or I wouldn't keep coming back.

Hi Steph,

I am going to speak directly here, as a friend and former long term depressed man.

You keep coming here and going away, month after month. The cycle repeats.

You need to see a professional counselor working with a psychiatrist who can --try-- anti-depressants with you.You are always welcome here, but I do not want the cycle to repeat again without you at least trying that. You need to do that now, today. You need to try the medicine (it takes a few weeks to kick in sometimes, and sometimes they have to play with various types and combinations before they hit one that is effective). Today. Try.

Like the alcoholic uncle who won't try to get treatment, I am going to have to close the door on you here soon because I think that, in a real and direct way, our inviting you to this party is enabling your condition. We are enablers, and I do not want to be that for you. So, tough love baby. How about reporting to us by Friday that you have arranged something? You are working, yourself, as a mental health professional in a big city ... you can find where to go.

Our way of Zazen is based on dropping thoughts and emotions. You are trapped in all these ideas and emotions that we see (at least I see) for the trash that they are, but which you cannot or will not see through right now. Sometimes the grip of alcoholism, other addiction or depression is so heavy that not even Zazen can shake them alone (just read about the late Maezumi Roshi, whose students sent him for alcohol treatment at the Betty Ford Clinic, or Daido Loori and his multi-pack a day cigarette habit). I hope that after your depression is treated, you will try Zazen again (and Shikantaza Zazen, the way of dropping thoughts and emotions. Is that, by the way, what you are practicing? You are never very clear on that). In the meantime, all you are doing is dumping garbage-mountains of words and emotions on a page like a temporary band-aid, using us to support your "habit". You are wallowing in those words and emotions, and no matter how much we point you to the way to step out of the mud hole you are in ... you just wallow.

That's it, and it is said with much love and concern.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shindo]

Re: Life after disappointment

Dear Stephanie

just to chime in.

When you are ill you need to seek treatment and god knows I have had enough of Doctors. The Sunday before last I went for a run, and then had blood in my urine - I really wanted to ignore this but my wife and friends insisted I see a Doctor last Wednesday. I have now been fast tracked to a haematuria clinic for a battery of tests this Friday. The tests will be embarrassing (especially as I work in the hospital) and painful (especially the cystoscopy). I really don't want to do this - I really don't, but this Friday I will present myself for six hours of tests because I have too. I will know on Friday afternoon if there is anything wrong - hopefully it is not related to the bowel cancer I had two years ago. I am sure it won't be - but being investigated is the right thing to do.

I do hope that you work out what is the right thing to do for yourself. You will be in my thoughts.

best wishes

Jools

[roky]

Re: Life after disappointment

i'm not sure being responsible for your own health means taking "anti-depressants" -- or maybe it does

my view may be in the minority, but it is shared by a few others, and is based on years as both a mental health clinic director, and supervisor of the admissions area of a state psychiatric center -- do not take anti-depressants without yourself doing very exhaustive research -- by "yourself", i mean you, not friends in the field, etc. -- certainly not someone who's taking them(good luck finding someone who's not) -- are they safe, are they effective, how do they work, are there any long term effects? -- there is an incredible amount of hype, that has been so effective, that i am skeptical of most professional's opinion on this, but i think if you do good research, you will then be able to make an informed choice --- and since it is your brain you're messin with, you need to be the one to make the decision

and if you do take them, hopefully it will be with a therapist who is neutral on this issue, and will be able to help you get off them -- i have seen them be very difficult to discontinue, unless you have a supportive therapist

if you can find a good therapist, thats great -- but if the one you find seems like an asshole -- they are(i'm sure you already know how messed up therapists are, and lets not even get into psychiatrists)

ok, end of equal time segment

gassho, bob

[Stephanie]

Re: Life after disappointment

Jundo,

It's not "tough love" to banish someone from a place she has just stated is the one place in her life she's been able to work through some of the greatest inner turmoil she's ever faced, a place where she's felt safe to share things she's found too difficult and humiliating to share anywhere else. I don't come here to troll or start trouble, I try to contribute positive things and express appreciation for what people offer me.

I've felt ashamed every time I've posted about my struggles and have only done it out of the genuine need for feedback from people who have engaged life in the same manner I have. As I've written, these dialogues here have helped me recognize that I am ill and to begin to separate that from my spiritual questions. That has been a huge step for me, and a challenging one.

All that coming here has "enabled" me to do is recognize that I have a problem and work on figuring how I'm going to address it. These kinds of changes take a long time. The fact that I haven't bootstrapped myself up from a deep depression in a matter of months doesn't mean I haven't been working at it. It's hard work, and if you had any experience at all in social work or other related professions, you would realize I've actually made a lot more "progress" in a matter of months than many people struggling with mental illness.

By rendering me an outcast, you've sent the message to everyone in this community that certain parts of themselves are not welcome here. Just because I'm the only one voicing these struggles doesn't mean I'm the only one having them. Shutting another door in my face doesn't accomplish anything but add another hurtful, icy rejection from a Buddhist to my memory bank.

And you are not a psychiatrist--it is not responsible for you to assume that role. Issuing a command that someone who suspects she might be bipolar get on antidepressants is incredibly reckless. For people with bipolar, antidepressants can lead to manic episodes, which in themselves can lead to reckless behavior and, in some cases, suicide.

I feel especially hurt since my last time coming back here, I did so because you reached out to me. What a setup. And I've been sitting for years, shikantaza probably since 2006, if not before. Just because I've fallen off in the last bit, and just because it hasn't done for me what you think it should, does not mean I haven't been practicing. I'd have no reason to come here and seek participation in a zazen-based community if the practice of zazen wasn't a huge part of my life. I've been trying to get back to daily sitting and coming here has helped me maintain the motivation to do so; I've never had any intention of ever stopping this practice.

I hope you don't delete or censor this post as you have done with some of my posts in the past. I respect your request for me to leave and won't be coming back--it was humiliating enough to put myself out there to begin with, there's no way I'm going to come back after being rejected for it. Trust me. But I think it's only fair to let me say my piece first.

And I ask of you that you never again issue reckless, uneducated mental health directives or advice again. You could really hurt someone.

Stephanie

P. S. I really like a lot of you and will miss interacting with you. My e-mail address is stephaniehairston@hotmail.com , feel free to contact me any time, I would love to hear from you.

[Stephanie]

Re: Life after disappointment

Also, I apologize to anyone who has found my posts frustrating, as I can imagine they must be to some of you. I can at least assure you that your efforts to help me have not been in vain. I value the patience, kindness, and empathy I have encountered here. Gassho.

[Jundo]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Steph,

if you are bi-polar, get treatment for that. Or, at least, try.

I am not a psychiatrist, but you should seek a psychiatrist's "opinion" for your condition and not neglect it (in fact, get two or three opinions, always the best to do). I will not be shutting the door to you here, and who is asking you to leave? But neither will I enable your refusal to consider taking some action.

What I said has to stand. This has repeated for too many months, I am sincerely worried about you as a friend and human being. Get checked, consisder doing what the doctors recommend, just that.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - I have only censored two posts in the entire history of Treeleaf, one a dirty joke and one the start of a verbal fight between two members (as I recall) ... and never, ever any of your posts. Apologies, because I just recalled shortening a post of yours when I was trying to make the point, about a year ago, that you sometimes wallow in words. Yes, I did cut a post short to make that point.

[Longdog]

Re: Life after disappointment

Sorry Jundo, I can't let that stand unquestioned.

Are you saying that Stephanie is barred from the forum unless she follows a treatment programme?

Are you really turning away a sanga member because she may be unwell?

I respect you right to ask people to moderatate the content and length of posts, and even to have things slow/quiet down a bit but to ask some one to leave because they have issues/questions/ideas is a lot more than tough love.

I even respect your right to tell it like it is and say 'look for help', whilst they have the right not to.

But to bar her seems extreme and unkind. I was once very ill, I went to my then 'sanga' (for want of a better word) as it was the one place I thought I'd be safe and welcome. I was asked to leave because I was unable to play my part in the ceremony that was to happen. The ground dissolved under me, I was heart broken. It didn't give me the kick to 'find help' it actualy pushed me over the edge and it has taken along to time to climb back up.

Yes we should be told if we are at danger of working ourselves up into a storm, not being present, but please threaten someone that they're not welcome unless they do as you say???????

People always have the option of not reading threads, skipping over posts, not replying if they feel the need.

If I've missunderstood you Jundo, I'm sorry , and will delete this but at present I can't see I have.

In gassho, Kev

[roky]

Re: Life after disappointment

i guess i have to not be a wimp and admit that the post kev wrote is closer to the way i really feel than what i actually posted -- i simply was afraid to criticize my teacher, as usual, for fear of hurting feelings -- and i know, jundo, you'll say that i had nothing to fear, but it's me being "nice" -- sorry, better to be honest -- and in this case, closer to the precepts

i respect your role as teacher, and moderator of the forum, and your taking it seriously is what i want from someone in those roles -- but i think you may have been a bit too protective of us, including stephanie, in this case -- really, i consider stephanie my friend, but i certainly was not reading all her stuff at a certain point, and i don't mind her knowing that -- i made it quite clear that my way of connecting with others is more in the zen hall than the forum

and i have to also admit, that hers is not the only posts i've fast-forwarded thru -- as i'm sure folks do with mine -- i think its the downside of cyberspace -- no physical presence, no eye contact, so you can't see the eyes glassing over(like my wife's do whenever i discuss "zen philosophy") -- so less editing -- blah, blah, blah

in fact, i'd be happy if treeleaf zendo was just that -- zen hall, no forum, personal interviews with the teacher

gassho, bob

[Jundo]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Kev & Roky,

I will not bar anyone. But, you know, if I encounter someone who has a potentially serious, perhaps self-destructive situation which I cannot judge from here, I need the person to be checked by a professional before they practice here. Sorry. It is common sense. There is a point where I need a doctor's note and a check-up, just like your local gym, or summer camp or school. Buddhist Sangha of all kinds (online or not) have standards for these things, and they are the subject of discussion among teachers. When in doubt about a student's safety, direct the student/Sangha participant to seek a doctor's opinion. In this case, I am in doubt.

It is rather a bad situation either way. Would you advise taking no action, and thus risk facilitating and enabling someone's harmful situation? Or would you advise taking the safe course, and requiring that the person, at minimum, get checked out and (if necessary) be under a doctor's care?

If a person exhibiting what seem to be symptoms of deep depression, bi-polar didorder or the like (I am not a doctor, so I cannot diagnose what is ongoing) will tell me that she has gotten checked, and is under some care, that person can play in our playground all he/she wants. Please understand, some things are a matter of making a tough call. Some things have to be "in the discretion of the manager".

Gassho, Jundo

[Keishin]

Re: Life after disappointment

It is very strange.
My last two attempts at posting here just aren't displaying!

I guess I am encountering the 'limitations' of being moderated!

what a shame

wishing everyone well

My favorite quote of Matsuoka Roshi "Ichi nichi kore ko jitsu!" (Every day a happy day).

[Jundo]

Re: Life after disappointment

It is very strange.
My last two attempts at posting here just aren't displaying!

I guess I am encountering the 'limitations' of being moderated!

what a shame

wishing everyone well

Hi Keishin,

I moved one post over here as its own thread, because it was an important post. I hope that is okay.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1147&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I have not done anything else to your posts. Gassho, Jundo

[Longdog]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Jundo,

I'm sure there are times and reasons when some one should be barred, I just don't think this is one of them, you do. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this has been a quick or easy decision for you and from the rest of your post I can see where you are coming from.

However, I am concerned that it gives a message that if you've got issues, keep 'em under wraps cos we're not too interested here. Now that is a bit unfair to you, as you haven't just dismissed anyone quickly, but that's how it could come across and where's the line drawn? People with mental health issues or possible/inferred mental health issues are already outcasts in so many ways and to inforce that belief isn't necessarily a good thing.

As an aside, but relevant and taken from recent postings, is there a problem here that the forum isn't working as you'd like it too? Topics/threads aren't going the direction you envisaged or of the nature you'd prefer? I'm not been arsey here, a genuine query. As some one stated before you could segment the forum into sections for e.g. literature, sitting, other philiosphies, chat so that any off soto zen talk was seperated out. Would that help keep the direction/flow?

Anyway said my piece and now I'll sit down and shut up :lol:

In gassho, Kev

[Jinho]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Jundo,

Making suggestions is one thing, demanding someone take action is another. Making decisions for another person is both unethical and ineffective. You have NO idea what is REALLY going on with Steph. You are both male and a lawyer and probably have no idea about a person's need to vent (yes I know this is an assumption, but trust me, it's a girl thing). This is setting a very bad precedent for the forum. It is also assuming that Steph has the resources to get the medical assistance YOU have decided she needs. She has said she is not suicidal and said she has done herself any physical damage, just that she has issues that she has not resolved. These issues are the most standard, common metaphysical, ontological, "why are we here" "the purpose of existence" "what MATTERS, why does it MATTER". These are exactly the issues struggled with by every great religeuse and philosopher. Steph has merely posted her thoughts on these most significant issues. That she has sometimes possibly intense emotions connected with these issues is only, PERHAPS a problem to her.

By the way, so-called "antidepressants" are not a cure for "bi-polar", there are entirely different meds for that.

But most significantly, you haven't said what the problem is with Steph posting here!!! (sorry, I can't find the BOLD key) I can't see any problem caused either to her or anybody else by what Stephanie has posted. She has no advocated violence or racial hatred or other antisocial actions. So what exactly is the problem? But before you answer, you better think long and hard about the effect of your answer.

But the issue is not what destructive thing Steph has done on/to the forum (she has done nothing except be repetetive), but the serious damage YOU have done to the trust and welcomeness of the forum. You have just asserted that you both have the right and will demand certain actions from people if YOU judge that it is in their "best interests". By the way, I suggest that Steph should send you the medical bills since she has said to me "she hopes to be able to see a therapist in a few months" which suggests to me that she doesn't have the resources now.

Steph is not an alcoholic and you are not shipping her bourbon. Analogies are not reality.

I have known people to kvetch for years, it makes them feel better so they do it.

I do appreciate all your efforts on the list.

gassho to all,
rowan

[robert]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Jundo,

I'm also bothered by the way this was handled. The "red flags" for me are:

-- crossing the line by directing someone to a specific course of treatment ("you need to see a professional counselor working with a psychiatrist who can --try-- anti-depressants with you"..."You need to try the medicine")
-- using someone's personal information, communicated by them in their posts, as the basis for making judgments and issuing directives. The fact that we speak about ourselves doesn't give another the right to speak for us. That's common sense.
-- threatening them with a ban unless they followed your directives
-- the overly strong tone, bordering on disrespectful ("you need to"... "tough love baby")
-- dissing the community by calling us "enablers". At the very least, reckless deployment of pop psychology jargon!

I didn't see a Terms of Service for the discussion board. Is there one, and does it say that users with medical or psychiatric conditions must have approval from a professional before practicing here? If that is one of the terms, it should be stated somewhere. Schools, gyms, etc have specific liability issues and legal requirements to deal with. I doubt these are applicable in the same way to an internet forum. You may know better.

Also, since you have known Stephanie a long time and consider her a friend, wouldn't it have been possible to convey your concerns and suggestions in a private e-mail, rather than humiliating her in a public discussion?

I was a teacher for many years, and at my job now I manage a few people. It's true that some calls are tough and even the best teachers sometimes make a questionable one. It seems to happen especially when the intent was good, when one was really trying to help. In all respect, sincerity and appreciation, I think that out of your deep concern you made a bad call. It can happen to anyone in your shoes; it has happened to me. No shame. But how you follow-up can be crucial. Not just for you and Stephanie, but the community as a whole.

And I can well imagine that this is a difficult spot to be in, and that no one really welcomes this kind of feedback. People wouldn't offer it if they didn't care, though -- about you and what you have built here.

With all best regards,
Rob