Practice without a teacher or sangha

[Shoki]

Hi Sam,

I think you have had lots of great responses so far, I'll just throw in this little story.

I got my first guitar when I was 14, in 1970. I learned to play by putting my fingers on the strings until I found something that sort of sounded good. I did this for years and years and eventually got good enough to play with others. I could figure out songs etc. But I had no idea what the chords were called. I couldn't read tabs or notation. I just figured it out as I went along

About 10 years ago I decided to take lessons. It was literally mind blowing. It turns out I was playing a lot of the chords either upside down or backwards. They sounded fine but I was making my life harder than it needed to be. I also thought that, up the neck, all 6 strings had to be fretted in order for the chord to be correct. Nope, depending on the chord you might only need to fret three or four of the strings. What!!!!!!

And for most songs in a culture the chords have pretty common relationships to each other so you can quickly figure out where a song might be going. I literally learned more in 6 months than I learned in all the time before I got a teacher.

So, I think Zen can be a bit like learning the guitar. You can do it on your own, and you can make progress. But a teacher can really help you avoid pitfalls and keep you headed down the right bath. I think the time I spent just banging on the guitar prepared me for the teacher. And I think Zen can be like that too. But mostly I think the teacher you help you guide you down the path they already know.

At least that is what I think today.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Shinshi,
That's funny. I was going to post pretty much the same guitar analogy. I started playing about 27 years ago. Self taught and never had a lesson. I am just an amateur hobbyist. Nothing special. But I have played with a couple of professional grade players who say I was good enough to hold my own and keep up with them. I really enjoy playing pretty much every day and I'm sure if I had a teacher I would be better. But I guess it is about the level of commitment you want to make and how much it means to you. I'm fine with doing it on my own. It's fun but it's not super important to me. I bought a ukelele a couple of weeks ago and same thing. I'm happy with teaching myself this. (It's much easier than a guitar).

With zen practice; I sat on my own for a while then found a couple of let's say not really qualified teachers, read many books and then found Treeleaf. Jundo and this sangha have really taken it up a level. You can read books all you want but you can't interact back and forth with a book. Websites and videos are OK but can they guide you through Jukai, rakusu sewing, Rohatsu? If you want to sit on your own, I guess you can. Maybe it is an individual thing. But it's not the same for me.

Gassho
STlah
James

[Amelia]

Same here with the musical analogy! I had played flute for about ten years prior to my first private lesson at age seventeen, but after just a few of those lessons, my sound significantly improved. It's amazing what a shift in perspective and someone else's experience can provide.

Gassho,
Sat today, lah

[Jishin]

Practice without a teacher or sangha

Learn Spanish from a teacher for 10 years and a big Zilch. Nada. Zero Spanish. No fluency. No language. In one ear, out the other.

Go to Mexico on an student exchange program for a few months, come back fluent. No teacher required.

Highly motivated person picks up a dictionary, watches Telemundo and other Spanish channels on their own and tries to converse with Spanish speakers. Bingo. Learn Spanish with no teacher.

It depends on the person.

Again, if you have to ask if a teacher is necessary, then you obviously need a teacher to tell you that you either need a teacher or don’t need a teacher at the very least.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Learn Spanish from a teacher for 10 years and a big Zilch. Nada. Zero Spanish. No fluency. No language. In one ear, out the other.

Go to Mexico on an student exchange program for a few months, come back fluent. No teacher required.

Highly motivated person picks up a dictionary, watches Telemundo and other Spanish channels on their own and tries to converse with Spanish speakers. Bingo. Learn Spanish with no teacher.

It depends on the person.

Again, if you have to ask if a teacher is necessary, then you obviously need a teacher to tell you that you either need a teacher or don’t need a teacher at the very least.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Well, I taught myself Japanese by living here for 30 years. That is one way. I speak and read fluently.

There are also some gaps, avoidable silly mistakes, little strange pronunciations and other errors that would otherwise have been avoidable because ... I taught myself Japanese including misteaching myself, and nobody to correct me, then reinforced by 30 years of misuse.

So ... Middle Way.

One must do their own "heavy lifting" and use the language ... and one should not be so stubborn that they can't be corrected and get some help.

Did you teach yourself medicine, doc? Yes, to some degree, I am sure that you did because some things can't be taught in school.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Practice without a teacher or sangha

Did you teach yourself medicine, doc? Yes, to some degree, I am sure that you did because some things can't be taught in school.

Medical school is 4 years in the USA. The first 2 are classroom and labs only. The last 2 are with patients and doctor/mentors. I did not go to class for the first 2 years and taught myself academic medicine. Years 3 and 4 teachers were forced upon me.

For psychiatry residency I had more freedom and taught myself without interference from the professors.

Everyone is different.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Ps: also taught myself Spanish and English to a large degree. All with a GED (high school drop out). [emoji3]

[Tairin]

Shinshi, Shoki, and Geika

Funny I was going to post a very similar story. I was primarily a self taught guitarist from my early teens. I got good enough to play in some bands. I taught myself some theory and picked up techniques by watching others. Then at 40 I was given a dream guitar and decided that I needed to improve to be worthy of the gift. I started taking some lessons and the improvements in my guitar playing were dramatic and immediate. It made me question why I had resisted going to a teacher for so long.

Zen is similar. I spent several years trying to sort through a bunch of information in books but it wasn’t until I started practice under guidance of a teacher that I really started to piece it all together.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Doshin]

Very good thread. Thanks to all for sharing. And no I don’t play the guitar

Doshin
St

[Jundo]

I just posted this elsewhere, when someone asked about the difference between lay members and "teachers/priests" and whether "Priests [are] the same as Lay People? ... I wanted to put it here too ...

Yes, to be a priest or priest in training is to move from being a passenger on the ship to a member of the crew of service to the passengers, from diner in the restaurant to waiters, cooks and busboys. People think that it is some kind of "step up," but it is meant as a step down. It is an unpaid role of service and helping. The job of "teacher" and "priest" is to keep the ship moving, the nutrition coming, and to learn our Ways to help Sentient Beings in their Practice, and then to pass these beautiful ways down to some willing fools in the next generation. (By the way, I prefer the old Chinese terms ""shanzhishi" = a "good wise friend (along the path)" (善知識, Sanskrit kalyanamitra) instead of "teacher," and the proper Japanese word "Sangha companion" 僧侶 ("Soryo") instead of "priest")

This came up this week when somebody who visited our Zazenkai in Tsukuba for the weekly Zazenkai, and asked why I stand in front of the Altar during ceremonies while others watch. Good point. For 2500 years, the priest is in the front, while the others watch. When I do so, I am just supposed to be the representative of everyone. However, it also implies some separation and rank. Therefore, time to change that, and we will take the lead. From time to time, I will invite some of our older members to "stand up there" during the ceremonies, lighting incense and representing all of us. It is also unprecedented in Zen and other traditional Buddhism to do that.

Gassho, J

STLah

As far as I am concerned, priests are the same as lay people, although sometimes the role is different. Nishijima had this philosophy ...

Nishijima advocated a form of ordination that fully steps beyond and drops away divisions of “Priest or Lay, Male or Female”, yet allows us to fully embody and actuate each and all as the situation requires. In our lineage, we are not ashamed of nor try to hide our sexuality and worldly relationships, nor do we feel conflicted that we are “monks” with kids and mortgages. When I am a parent to my children, I am 100% that and fully there for them. When I am a worker at my job, I am that and embody such a role with sincerity and dedication. And when I am asked to step into the role of hosting zazen, offering a dharma talk, practicing and embodying our history and teachings and passing them on to others, I fully carry out and embody 100% the role of “Priest” in that moment. Whatever the moment requires: maintaining a sangha community, bestowing the Precepts, working with others to help sentient beings. The names we call ourselves do not matter. In Nishijima’s way, we do not ask and are unconcerned with whether we are “Priest” or “Lay”, for we are neither that alone, while always thoroughly both; exclusively each in purest and unadulterated form, yet wholly all at once. It is just as, in the West, we have come to step beyond the hard divisions and discriminations between “male” and “female”, recognizing that each of us may embody all manner of qualities to varying degrees as the circumstances present, and that traditional “male” and “female” stereotypes are not so clear-cut as once held. So it is with the divisions of “Priest” and “Lay”.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Seibu]

Gassho,
Seibu
Sattoday

[Ippo]

This has been a great thread. So much has been said already.

For me, being around a teacher and community is so wonderful and enlightening. Often, just being around a master, seeing how they live, listening to what they say, is in itself very informative. I can't say the number of times this has happened for me.

Also, having a teacher and community that knows you (really knows you) puts you in a place of comfort and trust so you are able to share. When we share we are vulnerable and if we trust we are open to hearing what we might not want to. Also, we have blindsides and a teacher and Sangha area great we to check this!

I specifically joined TreeLeaf to deepen my practice and Sangha and to find a teacher that has "walked the path" and can see well past my own delusions and put my back in the right direction when I get a little lost.

As such, I am VERY grateful when Jundo gives me, what I call, a "nudge". A great teacher does this seamlessly and almost without effort but the effect is very noticeable and helpful.

Other Sangha members can do this too (often without knowing) and it is very humbling and rewarding for us.

So, Jundo, if you read this, I appreciate the "nudges" .

Gassho,

Ippo

SatToday

[Jundo]

So, Jundo, if you read this, I appreciate the "nudges" .

For Monty Python fans ...

https://youtu.be/BV3QgDq2TGw

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jakuden]

I "sat Zazen" for probably 20 years on and off with no teacher. I actually was, looking back, doing pretty true Shikantaza--I had studied what little instruction I could find and mostly based my practice perspective on Charlotte Joko Beck's teachings. I never sat longer than 15 minutes at a time though, and there were long gaps in my practice. I was easily and frequently distracted by the next shiny thing that came along: sometimes a helpful thing (Thich Nhat Hanh, Daido Loori), sometimes a confusing thing (Eckhart Tolle). I did learn what resonated and what didn't, but had no sense of grounded certainty; I was always wondering if the next "teacher" would have better advice than the last. I did not really know how to bring the practice fully into the rest of my life, either.

It didn't take long at Treeleaf for me to feel that I had come home to the practice that I had been attempting on my own for so long. Jundo's videos and sit-a-longs answered every question in a clear and practical way. I rooted in the archives here like a pig looking for truffles, LOL and came up with ways to compare and contrast all the teachings in the books I had read and the talks I had listened to over the years, thanks to Jundo's clear descriptions of the different "flavors" of Zen and of Buddhism in general.

Sometimes folks come here that are still in exploration mode, and are not sure that Zen is the path they are looking for. But once they have decided between Kwan Um, Rinzai Zen, Soto Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, and so forth, they will save themselves a lot of confusion and time if they find a good teacher within their chosen path, IMO.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Tokan]

Hi all

I have really enjoyed reading this thread, so thank you. You are all very unique in your practice, and I believe that is sometimes regarded as the true talent and purpose of the teacher - helping others to see the direction their path, their unique way to follow the way.

All I will say, for my part, is that when I listen to Jundo talking it is often like my own inner voice saying, "see, I told you reality was like that, you always listen to Jundo but not me, why not!"

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Heitou]

I too have enjoyed this thread, it has answered a few questions I have thought, it also makes me glad to be a part of this, I look forward to learning more from each of you and feel at home here. After three years of reading books I am excited to be around others so I can learn hands on.

[Jundo]

I posted this the other day in a facebook discussion where some fellow was asking if a "teacher" is needed, and commenting that his local Zen group near where he lives is okay but not totally his cup of tea ...

I am completely biased, of course, but to do without the mentoring and support of "friends along the way" (the term I prefer to "teachers") and Sangha companions many with years of experience, is like trying to teach yourself sailing or violin on your own. I mean, you can, but why? Also, be cautious about just learning something from books and videos. Zazen is Zazen (although it can run off in strange directions, or in circles, without some friends to help stay on track). So, find some teacher and group that resonates, and make use of the resources if you can.

Also, you local Zen center may be imperfect ... but an imperfect Sangha can teach much, such as HOW NOT TO DEMAND PERFECTION and the PERSONALLY SATISFYING!! :-) It is not supposed to be "perfectly pleasing!"

Gassho, J

STLah