Practice without a teacher or sangha

[shikantazen]

Let's imagine a person in a country where there are no zen teachers. Let's say he is not familiar with computers and doesn't have access to internet either.

If someone explains him the practice or mail him the "opening the hand of thought" book and he starts practicing will it even work?

How important is working with a teacher (and sitting with a sangha)? In other traditions, they say the teacher transmits energy to awaken the student. Is that what's happening in Zen too when you interact with the teacher (sit with him, have dokusan with him, listen to their dharma talks etc).

How less effective the practice will be for a person without a teacher or sangha?

Please no zenny answers saying "it is useless practice" etc..; I'm genuinely curious as to the role of sangha and teacher and how effective zazen alone can be

Gassho,
Sam
STLah

[Shokai]

How effective has it been for you so far? The beginner videos were exactly what I needed 15 years ago. I observe people on this forum that still wander through reams of un-required readings and searches after becoming familiar with the resources available here. One either connects with a teacher that resonates or they don't and move on to keep searching. IMO it's a matter of commitment (to yourself.)

gassho, Shokai
stlah

[Jundo]

Let's imagine a person in a country where there are no zen teachers. Let's say he is not familiar with computers and doesn't have access to internet either.

If someone explains him the practice or mail him the "opening the hand of thought" book and he starts practicing will it even work?

How important is working with a teacher (and sitting with a sangha)? In other traditions, they say the teacher transmits energy to awaken the student. Is that what's happening in Zen too when you interact with the teacher (sit with him, have dokusan with him, listen to their dharma talks etc).

How less effective the practice will be for a person without a teacher or sangha?

Please no zenny answers saying "it is useless practice" etc..; I'm genuinely curious as to the role of sangha and teacher and how effective zazen alone can be

Gassho,
Sam
STLah

It is as risky to practice without "friends along the way" including teacher or Sangha as it is to teach oneself Karate or tennis or ballet or from a book without a teacher. However, it can happen I guess. It may seem that we are not moving so much as the Karate or Ballet folks, but the mind moves ... life moves ... so we are moving, and it is good to have a teacher and experienced companions to help one learn the moves.

I do not know about literal "energies" but I believe that they are describing something. For example, when I was in college, I had some teachers whose very presence and charismatic energy changed my life, enlivened by learning, inspired me. Like that. Likewise in my Buddhist practice as a beginner in the past. That is why I am still here now, and I think for many other folks the same too.

Gassho, J

STLan

[Kokuu]

Hi Sam

Probably like many people I learned meditation and Buddhism from books for some time before finding a teacher. I will not say I did not learn anything but the addition of a teacher, and a sangha, made practice so much better and more fulfilling.

I see a lot of people on Facebook Buddhist groups declare that you don't need a teacher but suspect that the number of people who would not benefit from one is actually quite few, if any at all.

As Jundo says, if you are learning most skills you have a teacher. It kinda works better that way. But, everyone gets to choose their own path and we are not in the business of forcing all Buddhists to have one!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Horin]

I think the danger of not having a teacher or Sangha is when false ideas and views come up that are not corrected by someone. For example, when I started meditation and I had the first satori like experiences I was confused and had the idea that these states are the goal, so i aimed to attain again and again that states and I hoped that one day they will permanent. So, finally Jundo was the one that made me clear that it's not about any particular state at all..so I learned the way how to sit in a correct way, what mushotoku really is... Also other aspects, I probably wouldn't have learned in an autodidact manner.
The people in the Sangha are pulling one's own practice too, it's a cultivation of effort and also a place to interact in a way according to the path...
And this is at least for me an important part. Yet, if one isn't on a detour with false ideas, I think its possible to just sit alone without a Sangha or a teacher too.

Gassho
Ben

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I think the danger of not having a teacher or Sangha is when false ideas and views come up that are not corrected by someone. For example, when I started meditation and I had the first satori like experiences I was confused and had the idea that these states are the goal, so i aimed to attain again and again that states and I hoped that one day they will permanent. So, finally Jundo was the one that made me clear that it's not about any particular state at all..so I learned the way how to sit in a correct way, what mushotoku really is... Also other aspects, I probably wouldn't have learned in an autodidact manner.
The people in the Sangha are pulling one's own practice too, it's a cultivation of effort and also a place to interact in a way according to the path...
And this is at least for me an important part. Yet, if one isn't on a detour with false ideas, I think its possible to just sit alone without a Sangha or a teacher too.

Gassho
Ben

Stlah

Of course, groups and teachers can go strange directions too, teach or practice questionable stuff, or be generally unhealthy environments. lt is good to go to a doctor or school, but make sure not a quack or diploma mill.

So, keep your eyes open.

Also, one place or teacher may be right for some people, but wrong chemistry for others.

That's just common sense l think.

l just read a pretty good essay by a Buddhist teacher that said that it is best not to choose a group simply because of some romantic "Shangra-la" monastery in Tibet image, or even because one's attracted totally by their practices, lineages, styles, schools, cultural aspects, etc. ln other words, don't judge a book by the cover, don't rum away too fast because it does not fit your image. l sometime get folks leaving here, for example, because l am not Asian or talk like Yoda (well, l do say weird stuff sometimes! ), or because the person does not enter some stree-free la la land within 30 days.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onka]

Let's imagine a person in a country where there are no zen teachers. Let's say he is not familiar with computers and doesn't have access to internet either.

If someone explains him the practice or mail him the "opening the hand of thought" book and he starts practicing will it even work?

How important is working with a teacher (and sitting with a sangha)? In other traditions, they say the teacher transmits energy to awaken the student. Is that what's happening in Zen too when you interact with the teacher (sit with him, have dokusan with him, listen to their dharma talks etc).

How less effective the practice will be for a person without a teacher or sangha?

Please no zenny answers saying "it is useless practice" etc..; I'm genuinely curious as to the role of sangha and teacher and how effective zazen alone can be

Gassho,
Sam
STLah

Will what work comrade?
Before I was gently steered towards Treeleaf I started the day sitting at 5am for 20-30 minutes. I understood from reading one of comrade Brad Warner's books that this WAS the practice. No goals just sitting.
I kinda liked starting my day like this and understood that THIS was Zen a branch of Buddhism. I didn't really care too much about deepening my learning at that stage.
I found a bricks and mortar Zendo but it was a long way to travel and this really upset my spinal disabilities. My practice at the Zendo was awful because I was in so much pain that I often had to leave early and at times considered sleeping rough overnight somewhere because the motorcycle ride home was almost unbearable.
When I came to Treeleaf one of first things I heard from or read from Jundo is that learning about and understanding the history of Buddhism and how to apply Buddhist teachings to our daily life was an important part of Zen practice. This opened up a whole new world to me that I have chosen to pursue at a deeper level BUT this has not changed my daily 5am sitting regime one iota.
So I guess what this muppet is trying to say comrade is that I believe that someone can indeed practice without a teacher or the internet BUT I think they will be missing out on the richness of deeper practice.
Gassho
Onka
st

[Jishin]

Hi Sam,

You can not not teach and you can not not learn.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[shikantazen]

Thank you all for your replies. I sit daily at a local zen center and last week I had to miss 4 days as I had to travel for work. I still sat at the hotel twice daily but realized my focus has worsened by the end of the four days. This made me wonder that this practice is somewhat dependent on a teacher and sitting with a sangha. Someone without a zen center nearby would miss this and we have to be very thankful for treeleaf the online sangha that exists everywhere

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Ryushi]

The Buddha sat and awakened without a traditional teacher. So, it’s certainly possible. And he guided others not to rely solely on his teaching, but to prove out the dharma for ourselves.

That’s not to say it’s advisable, beneficial, or wise to be wholly self-reliant. The record and tradition suggest we benefit greatly from joint practice with others and guidance from others‘ wisdom.

The suggestion that teachers and community are unnecessary may be an attempt to encourage people to start practice where they are, under what conditions they find themselves. But it seems easily misinterpreted and I wonder what other motivation there might be for such advice.

[Seibu]

Hi Sam,

I used to practice without a teacher for two years. I read several books but questions remained that I could not resolve on my own because at that point, zen felt very contradictory to me. I remember reading a book by Shunryu Suzuki years ago in which he argued that it was not that important to go to the Moon (that's how I saw it back then). As a 25-year with an interest in astronomy I felt like zen was out of touch with our time so I felt kind of disappointed. Many years later (about three years ago), when I picked up my routine of sitting daily I started to read and dig deeper into the world of zen. I studied both Rinzai and Soto zen intellectually and like Horin mentioned, I wasn't sure about the meaning of satori or enlightenment and how I should experience them. When I came to Treeleaf, the pieces of the puzzle fell into place. I also found out I had been reading books on Buddhism without any clear introduction, so when I followed the beginners' series, read Opening the Hand of Thought, and discussed my lingering questions here at Treeleaf things got clearer as to what the practice of Shikantaza truly entails. I still have so much to learn and I am convinced that it is enriching and encouraging to study and practice together.

A teacher can be a great guide. In Japanese, the word sensei means something along the lines of "someone who already walked the path" (please correct me if I am wrong). Jundo already mentioned that it is quite a challenge to practice a martial art or any other sport without a teacher. As a martial artist (iaido/karate-do) I couldn't agree more. There is a level of fine-tuning that truly requires a highly experienced person who can observe, provide constructive advice, and correct when necessary. I also practiced iaido without a teacher for a long time when I lived too far away to practice at a dojo and after about a year my practice had worsened without me noticing.

Ryushi mentioned that the Buddha practiced without a teacher and I think it can be done, but I also believe that it is a much longer and steeper path that requires tremendous effort, possessing unwavering encouragement, discipline, commitment, and an inexhaustible intrinsic motivation to keep going when things get rough.

Gassho,
Seibu
Sattoday/lah

[Jishin]

If you have to ask the question then you need a teacher.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Kyotai]

If I may, I dont believe a teacher is essential or even necessary. Some simple instructions should be all one requires. A teacher would be preferred, however.

Gassho Kyotai
ST LaH

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Onka]

Will what work comrade?
Before I was gently steered towards Treeleaf I started the day sitting at 5am for 20-30 minutes. I understood from reading one of comrade Brad Warner's books that this WAS the practice. No goals just sitting.
I kinda liked starting my day like this and understood that THIS was Zen a branch of Buddhism. I didn't really care too much about deepening my learning at that stage.
I found a bricks and mortar Zendo but it was a long way to travel and this really upset my spinal disabilities. My practice at the Zendo was awful because I was in so much pain that I often had to leave early and at times considered sleeping rough overnight somewhere because the motorcycle ride home was almost unbearable.
When I came to Treeleaf one of first things I heard from or read from Jundo is that learning about and understanding the history of Buddhism and how to apply Buddhist teachings to our daily life was an important part of Zen practice. This opened up a whole new world to me that I have chosen to pursue at a deeper level BUT this has not changed my daily 5am sitting regime one iota.
So I guess what this muppet is trying to say comrade is that I believe that someone can indeed practice without a teacher or the internet BUT I think they will be missing out on the richness of deeper practice.
Gassho
Onka
st

I've been thinking more about Sam's opening post and my response a bit more so I decided to not sit first thing this morning and see how the day panned out and with that break my routine. It was different, not better, not necessarily worse just different. I had this weird sinking feeling that I had cheated on my sangha sisters and brothers and made a mockery of the Bodhisattva Vows I have committed publicly to follow as best as I can. I didn't go on a murderous rampage or liberate money from a bank, although to be honest I'd probably use the money to set up a community centre and fund local arts projects, but it didn't feel right starting my day without Shikantaza.
So I guess for me I like having been welcomed into a sangha as I feel accountable to them to engage in my daily personal practice with as much commitment and sincerity as I engage with our weekly Zazenkai. This was the difference between pre-Treeleaf sitting by myself and now. I hope they are warming to me in their own way as well. As well as this I like that Jundo, the person I've chosen to be my primary Buddhist teacher (I actually unsubscribed to comrade BW's YouTube channel today because frankly some of his fanboys come across as right leaning online troll dicks who could use a bit of a private 'chat' from the old Anna) makes time for Dokusan, keeps my brain engaged, actively challenges me publicly and privately, leads a weekly Zazenkai that can be accessed by those who are often disadvantaged in other aspects of their lives, and has created a world class Zen Buddhist resource that no other western Zendo would have the courage to do. I hope that one day I am able to say that Jundo sees me as a student of his but it's very early days in our relationship.
Make no mistake, this is not an arse kissing exercise. There are things about certain sangha comrades and Jundo that shit me to tears and I would be surprised if this wasn't reciprocated haha, but THIS is my learning, THIS is my practice as much as sitting daily is and living precariously housed in constant pain below the poverty line in an illegal dwelling is. I wouldn't change these learning environments for anything but a bit of respite every now and then might be nice haha.
Sorry for the mind fart but it's been stewing and is better out than in.
Gassho
Onka (it still feels weird using my Dharma name no matter how perfect it is)
Sat today later than normal.

[Shinshi]

Let's imagine a person in a country where there are no zen teachers. Let's say he is not familiar with computers and doesn't have access to internet either.

If someone explains him the practice or mail him the "opening the hand of thought" book and he starts practicing will it even work?

How important is working with a teacher (and sitting with a sangha)? In other traditions, they say the teacher transmits energy to awaken the student. Is that what's happening in Zen too when you interact with the teacher (sit with him, have dokusan with him, listen to their dharma talks etc).

How less effective the practice will be for a person without a teacher or sangha?

Please no zenny answers saying "it is useless practice" etc..; I'm genuinely curious as to the role of sangha and teacher and how effective zazen alone can be

Gassho,
Sam
STLah

Hi Sam,

I think you have had lots of great responses so far, I'll just throw in this little story.

I got my first guitar when I was 14, in 1970. I learned to play by putting my fingers on the strings until I found something that sort of sounded good. I did this for years and years and eventually got good enough to play with others. I could figure out songs etc. But I had no idea what the chords were called. I couldn't read tabs or notation. I just figured it out as I went along

About 10 years ago I decided to take lessons. It was literally mind blowing. It turns out I was playing a lot of the chords either upside down or backwards. They sounded fine but I was making my life harder than it needed to be. I also thought that, up the neck, all 6 strings had to be fretted in order for the chord to be correct. Nope, depending on the chord you might only need to fret three or four of the strings. What!!!!!!

And for most songs in a culture the chords have pretty common relationships to each other so you can quickly figure out where a song might be going. I literally learned more in 6 months than I learned in all the time before I got a teacher.

So, I think Zen can be a bit like learning the guitar. You can do it on your own, and you can make progress. But a teacher can really help you avoid pitfalls and keep you headed down the right path. I think the time I spent just banging on the guitar prepared me for the teacher. And I think Zen can be like that too. But mostly I think the teacher you help you guide you down the path they already know.

At least that is what I think today.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH