A question or maybe some insight from yall

[Keishin]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Hello Will.
You asked some questions and requested insight from us.
You asked if you were taking over the forum
You asked for insight with regard to some experiences you've been having: boredom/ordinariness and openness.

Well, ARE you taking over the forum? (only you would know your intention)!

As far as insight into your experiences, I don't know. I do know one answer about experiences is to 'keep sitting and they will go away.'

I saw one of your songs/skateboarding films (absolutely amazing). You're a guy that can 'roll with it.'

When you have something to say, say it! Use as many words as it takes to fully express yourself--no more and no less.

There are situations in which disorientation occurs: in the ocean, in the air, which way is up, which way is down? This is critical information every second is a lifetime and may mean your life itself. Also in zazen there are times when, if my butt were not on the cushion, I would not know which way was up.

Even if everyone here said encouraging positive things, there are still your very own doubts to contend with. And even if every one of us said negative disparaging things, your confidence in what you KNOW would be unshaken.

Don't doubt what you KNOW, by all means come to know your doubts: to 'study the self,' no?

Good luck with all of it!

[will]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Even if everyone here said encouraging positive things, there are still your very own doubts to contend with. And even if every one of us said negative disparaging things, your confidence in what you KNOW would be unshaken.

Don't doubt what you KNOW, by all means come to know your doubts: to 'study the self,' no?

True words.

Gassho

[lorax]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Hi Will and all of you:

I have been with Tree Leaf for about four months. I am still just putting my foot in the water so to speak as far as Treeleaf Community. First off, I always look at your postings since they seem to pull out some good discussion from others. Please keep offering your thoughts.

There are two reasons I seldom post anything. First, I guess I am from another generation and struggle with computer things. I still have not the confidence to sit live with Tree Leaf so you won't see me yet. One of these days I will.

The second reason I seldom post is that I am just starting to feel comfortable with the community. A lot of you get into an very active exchange and while I have some thoughts, just cant find a way to step in with any comfort. Several days ago there was a rapid fire exchange that got rather testy before Jundo steped in to cool things down. Guess having spent a life as a law enforcement officer dealing with people in crisis and conflict, I become unconfortable when I see it occuring in my new Tree Leaf "family".

Anyway Will, don't drop out, keep the thoughts comming, and I hope when you are off vacation and back to where ever, you will still find the time to be active with the Treeleaf Community. You have to be committed to spend the time. I find that sitting two times a day, early morning and late at night, and listning to Jundo, just about takes all my "free time". Guess we have to set priorities in our life.

Take care

Aloha Jim (Lorax)

[louis]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Hey Will. Nice post.

Knowing that one can be full of it in my case proved quite liberating. All my close friends are in on this fact, both of themselves and of me. As far as the delusions, like gas this too will pass.

Be well.

[Shohei]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Hiya Will
Great post and thanks for all you do post. Same to all who do post often, not so often, lurking or not.

I really cant answer or offer any insight but i have read some good stuff here already.

"I feel that some people might not want to post because they feel that other peoples post might be over the head. Or they might feel that their contribution is futile."
working on that

I actually post very little because I'm still afraid to expose how full of sh*t i am/how far off the mark?(non-mark) (so far its my best estimate), that being said, I enjoy reading your posts, quotes and your music you share. I enjoy Just as i do getting each persons bit of perspective (of course perspective i read is skewed a tad by the medium and then again by my own mind, but you get the picture). But when it comes to the deeper discussions ... im outta my league so i enjoy reading from the sidelines and practicing as i can. I do believe in a balance of just sitting and intellectualized practice... so i read when time is there... my favorite zen book is still zen master raven- oh wait - no like or dislike.. wait thats okay cuz it me...oh wait who am I... arg.. /me mubbles and walks away.

Deep Gassho to all
Dirk,

[Jinho]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Why do I feel like I'm taking over the forum sometimes with my posts. I have to work with this reluctance. I feel that some people might not want to post because they feel that other peoples post might be over the head. Or they might feel that their contribution is futile.

Well, I am one of the avid posters in this place and I can tell you that I am just as full of s**t as the next person. I don't know. Maybe noones full of s**t. Maybe they've got it and I don't. They must have it. I mean they've been doing this Zen thing for so long. Anyway, if anyone does feel like they don't have anything to contribute, don't feel that way. Or maybe your just extremly wise and don't want to bother anyone with your BS. Gassho to you.

For this post I want to make sure I'm on the right track. ("No I" jokes aside please)

I've had quite a bit of experiences, delusions,and misunderstandings in practice. Recently I've experienced two types of things. One is utter boredom and great ordinariness. For example: just seeing everything just as it is. Wow, that's a laptop. Great (sarcasm). It used to be a shiny, black, streamlined piece of technological sweetness. A possesion. Now, it's just a laptop. It has a screen, some keys etc. but that streamlined drool is gone. Those used to be oxygenating Zen like bamboo trees, now there just bamboo trees. So, I don't know. I guess you could say that all the cr*p is kind of gone.

Another is a feeling of openess. A feeling of somewhat joy, and just feeling the hair on my head with my hand. And feeling the skin. Now, I would probably say the feeling is probably just an attachment. Another streamlined experience. Another wow look at that. So I guess what I'm getting at is. Is it that ordinariness that we are shooting for (or not shooting for). Or is it that everything is kind of ordinary, and when we attach say a name or a personal thought towards it, we subjectify it?

I'd appreciate your insight or suggestions.

Gassho Will

Dear Will,

I suppose I hesitate to answer since I am not sure you would want me to, but there is the urgent buzzing....

I do not believe you are "taking over" the list since that is not possible. No one is forced to read your posts (or anyone else's). But I wish to thank you soooo much for your offerings. And the forum is a place for people to say as much or as little as they feel impelled to say.

As for your posts being sh*t (are there some words we are not allowed to write on the list? this disturbs me), I suppose I think this attitude is both unwarranted and abusive. Unwarranted because, in my experience, my practice/life is continuously, over and over, a process understanding, then understanding a bit deeper or clearer, then understanding even a bit deeper or clearer than that, and on and on. And so each previous "understanding" might seem shallow or deluded, but the process goes on and on.

"Is it that ordinariness that we are shooting for (or not shooting for). Or is it that everything is kind of ordinary, and when we attach say a name or a personal thought towards it, we subjectify it?"

I suppose it is my opinion that (for me anyway) "ordinariness" and "wowness" are simply emotions, which I believe I should neither praise nor condemn, they are just feelings, and feelings are dharmas like all other phenomena.

As for the much maligned "attachment", being attached is as fine as any emotion, as long as one is not controlled by the attachment, not deluded by the attachment, understanding that attachment is an emotion, and emotions deserve the same respect and kindness as other dharmas.

It is commendable that you care that some people might have obstacles to posting but I had a thought that you might be feeling that it is "your fault". If so, I would like to disagree, and say that you are not responsible for other people's feelings (except not to be overtly abusive and insulting, of course that goes with out saying).

And if your posting on Treeleaf ONLY benefits YOU, that is a fine and good and wonderful thing!


gassho,
rowan
who hopes she hasn't wasted your time, assuming you have read this.

[will]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Hi everyone. I 'd like to state that I left those questions 2 days ago and preferred to move on.

However, It is a good thread with much wisdom, so no problem.

W

[will]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

my practice/life is continuously, over and over, a process understanding, then understanding a bit deeper or clearer, then understanding even a bit deeper or clearer than that, and on and on. And so each previous "understanding" might seem shallow or deluded, but the process goes on and on.

Gassho and on and on

[Jinho]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Hi everyone. I 'd like to state that I left those questions 2 days ago and preferred to move on.

However, It is a good thread with much wisdom, so no problem.

W

Darling, you are such a tease :wink:

r

[cdshrack]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

I'm posting in public - oh my!

I really enjoyed the content of Hans' post on this thread - it reflected a lot of my own opinions. I check in on the threads infrequently enough that by the time I am ready to post someone has frequently already made the points I might make, and I seldom feel they need to be stated again. And I always enjoy when Hans posts because I love that picture of him.

Will, I'm not sure which two questions you've left behind, but feel free to ignore this. I am posting it because I feel like posting it.

In regards to the feelings of boredom and joy, I've been interested over the last couple years to look at when I feel boredom and when I feel joy, and when I feel joy at my boredom or boredom with my joy, and realize that sometimes I feel joy at my lack of joyfulness and sometimes I feel it in regards to my joyfulness. More and more it seems just fine to be joyful, non-joyful, bored, or non-bored.

It seems I usually feel joy in knowing that whatever is going on will change, and I can appreciate that life is currently pleasant or knowing that life will again become pleasant, and in not knowing when any of these things will happen. And I am not really concerned as to whether or not this is an enlightened or unenlightened view, but am happy to see that I have it.

Gassho to you all for being a part of it.
cd

[Godzilla]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Wow
I seem to have missed quite a lot going on here in my absence.
I actually started on this forum checking it every day and posting a fair bit I think. I'v ebeen unemployed lately and it coincided with a period of being very into my zen practice so it was a natural progression ot be regularly on here reading and writing.

I don't know if anyone else has this experience, but I find that I will have bursts of being very into reading and talking about zen, but then I'll need a break from the intellectual. This is a pattern that is reflected in my own life. I've always been an intellectual geeky kind of person, but I also have a strong will to actually live. Sometimes I see intellectualisation as hiding from actual experience. Intellectualising something means standing back from it and observing to an extent in a detached position. So I try and bring myself back from that. And in terms of zen get my head of the books and my arse onto the cushion. I like practicing martial arts for this reason, zen in movement rather than thoughts.

So I've not been on here much lately and to a certain extent some of the posts here are a bit of a shock. But then again, any group of people coming together goes through various stages of formation where people sort out their roles and positions within a group and hat the group is for etc. And then things settle down for a while.

Everyone should have the right to post or not to post in equal measure. No-one should feel they HAVE to post and no-one should feel they are posting too much. Just post the right amount for you and let go of ideas of how much should be right.

I used to write on music forums and things a while ago and get into arguments. I realise now all of that was about my own ego, the desire to show how intelligent I was and to outdo and shoot down other people. There have been posts on here that have made me angry, but I've made the decision to not respond in an angry way. Responding in anger is giving up my own integrity, allowing someone else to dictate how I feel. In life generally people all around can do things that bother us, or evne do things that we think is great, but when we attach our emotions to them and let emotion take over we lose ourselves to ego.

Its nice to be back

[TracyF]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Hey Will, just keep pluggin' along.

I honestly don't get the hostility you receive sometimes particularly since it's so obvious you're not trying to be a jerk. Maybe you seem a little evangelical but it's pretty mild so, again, the mocking and hostility is unwarranted, IMO. All you can do is ignore it.

I'd love to post more but it takes too much work and if I had a choice between sitting with Jundo and typing about zen, I'm going to sit. Plus, if I want to listen to a discourse on zen, there's tons of really nice dharma talks online. I am going to take the time to read Aiken's book and join that discussion. I've already read the beginning and I think I'm going to enjoy it.

[Justin]

Re: A question or maybe some insight from yall

Hello Will,

My reasons for relative silence on the forum are threefold:

-I often find my thoughts have been adequately expressed by someone else.
-My job and freelance work keep me away from the forum for lengthy stretches of time.
-Sometimes there's nothing to say.

Gassho. Glad to see this place is more vibrant every time I make it back.