SPLIT THREAD: EYE to EYE

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40992

    #16
    Lovely descriptions. The following is what I usually say when this comes up ...

    =============


    I personally am not staring fixedly at a "point" or a dot ... nor am I staring so unfocused that my eyes go blurry. I describe it as "staring at everything and nothing in particular". My eyes take in the room or the floor or wall quiet naturally, but I do not latch onto anything particular I am seeing. "Staring wide eyed into space" may be a good description. Maybe my focus just wanders from point to point to point quite naturally, resting where they rest, on this or that, then moving on when they move on.

    I do not see particular harm in staring at a fixed spot the whole time, except that it is a little unnatural. Even when facing the wall, I do not fixate like glue on a single spot.

    Let me just say that, in our Shikantaza way with the eyes about 1/3 open, there should be nothing particularly unusual or out of focus about the vision. It is seeing normally, but just not thinking about and judging what one is seeing. Otherwise, nothing usually particularly strange about the vision.

    Monks in monasteries would sometimes sit in sunlight during the day, weak candlelit rooms at night, so I don't think that is the problem.

    If you are doing something to excess (such as forcing the eyes to fixedly stare, failing to naturally blink, allowing them to really go out of focus or the like) then you are kinda "trying to hard". It is rather like riding a bike: If you relax, it is easy. If you try to hard, you lose your balance and fall.

    Gassho, J

    What a room looks like before Zazen ...



    What the room looks like during Zazen (but just not thinking particularly thoughts like "ugly sofa, nice chair, wish I were outside, need to clean this dirty floor ... "



    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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    • Kevin Benbow
      Member
      • Oct 2019
      • 71

      #17
      Thanks Jundo.

      I took this stance today and it seemed more natural.

      Gassho

      Klb

      Sat today

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 40992

        #18
        I sometimes compare it to driving too ... staring out the wind screen, alert and aware, taking all in calmly, relaxed, but without focusing on any particular point although our eyes may alight here or there for a time.

        Gassho, J

        STLah
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Kevin Benbow
          Member
          • Oct 2019
          • 71

          #19
          Thanks Jundo.

          Gassho

          Klb

          Sat today.

          Comment

          • DogBreath
            Member
            • Oct 2019
            • 12

            #20
            I am experiencing some issues with sitting - my eyelids seem to want to ‘hover’ or ‘flutter’ every couple of minutes or so and I have to go back to full open eyes before returning to 1/3 rd open eyes - also after 10 minutes my eyes feel “strained” and I’ve even had them run. I think ‘soft gaze’ but without any effect.
            There’s no bad Zazen - so am I doing it wrong?
            Any help, advice, instruction will be truly appreciated!
            Gassho
            Scott

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 40992

              #21
              Originally posted by DogBreath
              I am experiencing some issues with sitting - my eyelids seem to want to ‘hover’ or ‘flutter’ every couple of minutes or so and I have to go back to full open eyes before returning to 1/3 rd open eyes - also after 10 minutes my eyes feel “strained” and I’ve even had them run. I think ‘soft gaze’ but without any effect.
              There’s no bad Zazen - so am I doing it wrong?
              Any help, advice, instruction will be truly appreciated!
              Gassho
              Scott
              Hi Scott,

              See if these threads help. You may be sitting in some unnatural way with the eyes, or trying too hard to hold them exactly 1/3 open. There should be no strain. However, if it persists, just sit with normally open eyes in a room with sedate lighting.

              Question about the eyes. I have found that during my sittings my eyes tend to "drift up". This disturbs my sitting, and I feel like have to return them towards a more downwards position. Additionally, my eyes tend to get very unfocused, so that after I sit it is difficult to see things clearly. Just wondering if


              Come take a little drive ... sorry if the road is a bit winding ... I have encountered a few people in recent days asking about the "Open Spacious Awareness" of Shikantaza. I always try to describe things in clear terms that modern folks can relate to. So, although Dogen surely did not own a car (he did sometimes


              Gassho, Jundo

              STLah

              PS - Don't forget about the photo please.
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • DogBreath
                Member
                • Oct 2019
                • 12

                #22
                Yes, that makes sense.
                Thanks.
                Gassho
                Scott
                I will try to upload another photo - the dog was supposed to be my avatar but then I found the avatar had to be 80x80 pixels, so will have to keep searching for one. As for a profile pic I tried to upload one of myself (and dog - there's a reason I chose that name!) but was unable to - I will try again.

                Comment

                • DogBreath
                  Member
                  • Oct 2019
                  • 12

                  #23
                  Hello
                  the question I have is this - is Zen myopic, are my eyes too close together, or have I got a big nose?
                  Recently, when sitting, I have become aware that I am looking out of one eye only - or more specifically, the left side of my nose can be seen whilst the right eye seems to be registering nothing - is blank......so I started to mess about with eye angles. Looking straight ahead = no problems. Looking 45 degrees (down) and the problem reoccurs. The lowest I can put my eyes without "blanking out" one eye is about 80 degrees (assuming 90 degrees is looking straight ahead and your eyeball is round!) - 80 degrees is a long way from 45 - so what's going on? so.....

                  I asked my wife - she tried looking out of her eyes at different angles and said that whatever angle she was looking at she was always looking out of one eye.....
                  Of course, when we look straight ahead (lets say 90 degrees) we see out of "one eye" - but when I look at 45 degrees I am definitely not looking out of one eye - I am looking out of my left eye predominantly (because I can see the left side of my nose) - is this just me? Is 80 degrees an acceptable angle? Are my eyes too far apart or my nose too big (yes to the latter probably....).
                  Anyway, any advice is appreciated because I am now sitting looking at an 80 degree angle so that I can keep both eyes functioning and don't "blank out" one eye....and sitting 80 degrees is a lot more pleasant than sitting looking at 45 degrees for reasons stated......so, does anyone have any suggestions?

                  Thanks
                  Scott

                  SAT

                  Comment

                  • Kotei
                    Dharma Transmitted Priest
                    • Mar 2015
                    • 4313

                    #24
                    Hello Scott,

                    I think the fact, that you're mostly looking out of one eye is called Ocular dominance and like left or right handedness pretty normal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_dominance

                    I might be totally wrong with this, but personally I find it more important to naturally look slightly downwards in a relaxed, natural way, than keeping a definite angle.
                    Recognising the image seen, but not concentrating on it.
                    Regarding my own posture, I needed to learn that I have a tendency to bend my back and with that tilt my head backwards.
                    With a backwards tilted head, when looking at the wall for external reference on my eye angle, this doesn't work.
                    I need to come back to checking my spine and head alignment from time to time.

                    Gassho,
                    Kotei sat/lah today.
                    義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40992

                      #25
                      First, ask you eye doctor next time you get checked about this, not your Zen teacher. l know that eyes have man blind spots that we usually are not aware of unless brought to our attention.

                      Our Health and Wellness pages offer inside looks into treating disease, eating nutritiously, and living healthily. Explore our various articles and resources for useful health information to stay healthy.


                      However, l will say this ... just have your eyes open about 1/3, looking at the wall ahead or at the floor. But truly, 1/3 open or 1/2, 80 degrees or 90 degrees or 1000 degrees does not matter. Wall is looked at but not pondered. Floor is seen but is translucent and bottomless to the end of time and space. Do not measure, do not judge. lf you have one eye, no eyes, two eyes or 100 eyes does not matter.

                      Ordinary people are blind even with 20-20 vision. Better to see with Buddha Eye which see with equanimity both in the lighest light and the blackest dark.

                      Capiche?

                      Gassho, J

                      STLah
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • DogBreath
                        Member
                        • Oct 2019
                        • 12

                        #26
                        Thank You Kotei
                        for taing the time to answer and for being helpful.
                        I had wondered about one eye dominance, though I had noticed this was something that I could willingly change by shifting my awareness.
                        It is something that seems important to me because after all what's the point of having your eyes open if you're not actually looking out of them, or are aware of any data they reflect.
                        Thanks again for taking the time to respond - and for being helpful.

                        Gassho
                        Scott
                        Sat/Lah

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40992

                          #27
                          Originally posted by DogBreath
                          It is something that seems important to me because after all what's the point of having your eyes open if you're not actually looking out of them, or are aware of any data they reflect.
                          This may sound strange (this is Zen after all! ), but we are simply not "seeing" or "looking" and using our eyes in Zazen in the usual run of the mill way. We are not looking at things to recognize and think about them. One has the eyes open, but is sitting in deep equanimity about what one is seeing, not caught up in judgments or analysis about the experience. The reason that we sit with eyes partially open is a bit practical (so as not to doze off so easily), but more than that, it is to manifest an attitude of not shutting ourself off from the world yet not running toward the world either. As well, we sit without paying much attention to the distinction between "outside" me and "inside" me, and thus sometimes the hard borders and frictions of self and non-self soften. I sometmes compare the experience to driving a car ... alert, but seeing everything and nothing in particular, while one's heart is quiet and in deep equanimity about the open road.

                          Thus, the eyes are open, but it does not really matter if you have one eye, ten eyes, no eyes or 100 eyes.

                          Does that make some sense?

                          Gassho, Jundo

                          STLah
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Meian
                            Member
                            • Apr 2015
                            • 1720

                            #28
                            I have always struggled with this. I seem unable to keep my eyelids at "half mast" - my eyes are either open or shut, no in-between.

                            So I usually face a blank wall or a door and focus on one spot or a small mark and stay there. As a focal point, not to study it.

                            Been doing that for ages, but that's just what works for me.

                            Gassho
                            Kim
                            St lh

                            Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
                            鏡道 |​ Kyodo (Meian) | "Mirror of the Way"
                            visiting Unsui
                            Nothing I say is a teaching, it's just my own opinion.

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                            • DogBreath
                              Member
                              • Oct 2019
                              • 12

                              #29
                              Yes Jundo that helps to clarify things - the not shutting one's-self off and not running towards is perhaps what's missing at this point - The next time I sit and attempt to place myself between worlds.
                              Thank You

                              Gassho
                              Scott
                              Sat/lah

                              Comment

                              • DogBreath
                                Member
                                • Oct 2019
                                • 12

                                #30
                                Hello Kim
                                That's interesting - so you sit with eyes fully open and focus on a point - I tried focussing on a point but with eyes 1/3rd open and found it gave me eye strain - I may give it a try with eyes wide open also - something else to consider before I cease considering!
                                Thanks

                                Gassho
                                Scott
                                sat/lah

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