Breath as practice versus plain sitting

[shikantazen]

Why are most zen teachers using counting breath and following breath as a practice instead of the plain sitting way explained in "Opening the hand of thought"?

They mix it up with things like goalless practice, not to expect anything while on one hand you clearly have a goal to get better at staying with breath longer. This makes it confusing

Also plain sitting seems to be (I know this is banned word, but still) faster method compared to spending several years of counting prior. It also seems true to what dogen was teaching too

What are your thoughts on this.

Gassho,
Sam
stlah

[Rich]

I remember counting breaths when ifirststarted meditating. Was so attached and habituated tothinking and dreaming and the counting at least differentiated from that. I think when you drop all the methods and techniques it’s just sitting in a relaxed awareness with no goal. Sometimes when I get caught up in shit I ask what is this. That usually makes me smile

Sat/lah




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[Jundo]

Hi Sam,

Well, personally, I do believe that some teachers and students do use Zazen and the breath as a tool to attain deep concentration states. That becomes the central emphasis and goal in some kinds of Zazen, and I feel that it is not really Shikantaza (even if called so). On the other hand, a little breath following or counting, or having some other place where to rest the attention (Uchiyama Roshi encouraged placing the attention on the posture, and some teachers speak of focusing on the "Hara" region below the navel or the palm of the hand in the Zazen Mudra) is a good way to focus and settle the mind a bit. That is a good thing.

I also encourage folks to follow the breath gently, especially when new to Zazen or on those days when the mind is really storming. Some settling of the mind, letting thoughts go and relaxing the mind, is a good thing in Shikantaza. Then, when someone has more experience in Zazen, and the mind is pretty settled, I encourage transitioning to "open spacious awareness" focused on everything and nothing in particular (I have sometimes compared this to the experience of driving, relaxed yet alert, looking out the wind screen and seeing the whole road and surroundings, but not being grabbed by any one thing in particular ... like the radio or smart phone ... nor lost in thought and daydreaming) ...

Drivin' Dogen - Understanding "Open Spacious Awareness"

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16743-Drivin-Dogen-Understanding-Open-Spacious-Awareness

However, even then, notice that there is a focus of attention: The open road. Everything and nothing in particular. It is just not a "one pointed" focus like sticking with the breath or the Hara. I simply encourage this because I believe it is easier to take off the cushion into life, and I believe that doing so emphasizes the equanimity and acceptance of the whole world that is vital to Zazen. In Zazen (whether in "open spacious awareness" or following the breath, posture etc.) one also sits in radical goallessness, radical equanimity. with Zazen as a perfect doing ... the mere act of sitting without grabbing thoughts as itself a pristine act with nothing lacking. Concentration states and other experiences of various kinds may come and go, but they are not sought after or the goal (some teachers may do so, but I believe that misunderstands Shikantaza). The radical equanimity and dropping of need and judgement is the point. The hard borders of friction between oneself and the world will soften, perhaps sometimes drop away.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Geika]

Why are most zen teachers using counting breath and following breath as a practice instead of the plain sitting way explained in "Opening the hand of thought"?

They mix it up with things like goalless practice, not to expect anything while on one hand you clearly have a goal to get better at staying with breath longer. This makes it confusing

Also plain sitting seems to be (I know this is banned word, but still) faster method compared to spending several years of counting prior. It also seems true to what dogen was teaching too

What are your thoughts on this.

Gassho,
Sam
stlah

I will sometimes count. It depends on my state of mind. It is not something that needs to be done for a certain amount of time before attempting shikantaza, but just a tool for those times that the mind will not settle. After some rounds of counting, I soon find that it can be dropped off and remain open. Sometimes, I count the whole time because every time I stop I start going through an entire scenario in my head and pop back to reality suddenly, wondering how much time I just spent somewhere else. I am quite prone to vivid daydreams.

There are other times I simply sit on the cushion and, a-ha! No need to count. Sometimes I just focus on the breath. Sometimes, I focus on my posture, or simply the feeling of my body. Over time, I stopped picking and choosing methods and instead see it as more like tools in the tool box.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Jishin]

Breath as practice versus plain sitting

...I encourage transitioning to "open spacious awareness" focused on everything and nothing in particular...

Like a cat!

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jishin]

I ask what is this. That usually makes me smile

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[shikantazen]

I understand using them as a tool when needed but in most zen schools the instruction is to first develop this joriki or power of concentration to be with the breath before just sitting. When I shared my practice with few teachers earlier they even warned me saying if I don't follow breath first I'm wasting my time. We certainly don't do that here and I don't think any of the teachers in kodo sawaki's lineage either.

This breath focus seems to be something inherited from theravada or vipassana style rather than something dogen taught? Should I just assume those teachers (who warned me) just didn't try this way and hence are not aware it works too?

Gassho
Sam
st

[shikantazen]

I will sometimes count. It depends on my state of mind. It is not something that needs to be done for a certain amount of time before attempting shikantaza, but just a tool for those times that the mind will not settle.

A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

Gassho,
Sam
st

[Rich]

A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

Gassho,
Sam
st

It doesn’t matter to me. It’s 100% my practice whether caught up or not.

In stressful or emotional times practice can be difficult just like life

Sat/lah


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[Jundo]

I understand using them as a tool when needed but in most zen schools the instruction is to first develop this joriki or power of concentration to be with the breath before just sitting. When I shared my practice with few teachers earlier they even warned me saying if I don't follow breath first I'm wasting my time. We certainly don't do that here and I don't think any of the teachers in kodo sawaki's lineage either.

This breath focus seems to be something inherited from theravada or vipassana style rather than something dogen taught? Should I just assume those teachers (who warned me) just didn't try this way and hence are not aware it works too?

Gassho
Sam
st

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, not one not two ...

Folks who say that would tend to emphasize Zazen as meditation to attain some kinds of samadhi as states of deep concentration. I do not think it limited to Theravada and Vipassana, but is a typical emphasis of many kinds of meditation, including by some Chan and Zen folks, that seeks for samadhi states.

Those in the "Zen is good for nothing" flavor of Shikantaza and Master Dogen's Zen samadhi may emphasize the radical goallessness, wholeness, equanimity and fulfillment of the simple act of sitting itself, and all of life. Yes, runaway thoughts and judgments can hide that from our eyes, as can running after goals and seeking special states. We also follow the breath or the posture or sit in open awareness as all that drops away. Various states of concentration come and go, different days of sitting present changing scenery like changing weather, yet the clarity of the open sky is never obstructed.

A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

We may come back and forth 10,000 times and 10,000 times again. Sometimes deep deep samadhi states, sometimes a stormy day, sometimes body and mind soften, sometimes dropped away or solid as a stubborn rock. All changing weather. People in meditation sometimes think that the "truth" is only the clear days without a cloud in the sky. Those times are lovely too. However, to know that the sky is always present, seen or unseen, is our Practice.

Count when you wish to count, sit in open awareness and deep equanimity as it strikes one ... no rules.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Doshin]

A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

Gassho,
Sam
st

A lot...

Doshin
St

[Hoseki]

A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

Gassho,
Sam
st

Hi,

I can't give you a direct answer to how often I get caught up. But I do a couple of things. When my mind is really active I will try to just feel what's going on in my shoulders or back. Maybe just tighten my focus a little bit. Its like having just a toe touching the bottom of a swimming pool. Just enough to stay ground.

But if my mind is relaxed I try to just lightly be aware of my breathing and posture and just let things come and go. My attention will focus then I relax again. I think getting caught up in though involves a tightening of attention. But then I try to let it relax again which basically means I get out of my own way.

I think another way to look at it would be letting your eyes go ever so slightly out of focus. You still see everything but your vision isn't locked onto an object.

Does that make sense?

Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

[Seiryu]

Just sit. If counting the breath, just sit counting the breath.
If not, just sit.

Not a question of this or that.

Sat

Seiryu

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[shikantazen]

I don't want to count breath, just don't like it. Very hard to catch where my breath is, whether it is in breath or out breath, starting or ending. Just sitting is best for my lazy self.

I have sat a 2.5 day rohatsu and then a 1 day last weekend. I will sit another four day retreat next week. I am noticing with these retreats my focus is improving greatly (not during but post retreat). I am noticing I am being bought back from caught up thought several times (probably almost once every minute or even better (on good days)). You guys will have the frequency even higher I suppose. Will continue sitting.

zen seems just hard work (sit more), masochism (for pain during retreat) and compassion (giving it back to the world)

Gassho,
Sam
stlah

[Daitetsu]

Over the years several friends asked me questions like "How much progress have you made with meditation?" or statements like "I guess you must be very good at meditating", etc.

Usually I don't bother to tell them that Zazen is not the same as meditiation, but what I try to explain them:
- It is not about making progress.
- I do not make any progress.
- There is no better or worse - and I do not care. It is like it is.

Zazen is about "not-judging", and as soon as you start to evaluate your practice in some way, you miss the whole point of it.
Practice is just about practice. That's the whole point.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day