Breath as practice versus plain sitting

[Jundo]

I don't want to count breath, just don't like it. Very hard to catch where my breath is, whether it is in breath or out breath, starting or ending. Just sitting is best for my lazy self.

I have sat a 2.5 day rohatsu and then a 1 day last weekend. I will sit another four day retreat next week. I am noticing with these retreats my focus is improving greatly (not during but post retreat). I am noticing I am being bought back from caught up thought several times (probably almost once every minute or even better (on good days)). You guys will have the frequency even higher I suppose. Will continue sitting.

zen seems just hard work (sit more), masochism (for pain during retreat) and compassion (giving it back to the world)

Still seems like perhaps you are trying too hard, and measuring too much.

I recommend that you just follow the breath, forgetting "in," "is" or "out," startings and endings or anything to catch. Buddha cannot be caught, and is out, is, is not and in, coming and goings and a leap through all such. Engage in nice natural breathing from the diaphram, but then ... forget about all measures.

Sit a retreat of 1 day or 4 days, but also put down all measures of time, burn the calendar and smash the clock.

"Bring back" your caught up thoughts exactly once every 2.6375 thoughts (just kidding! ).

In fact, do not latch on, do not measure, do not be concerned as one releases 10,000 times again ... if finding oneself tangled or grabbing thoughts, merely let go and sit again. Be in the space between thoughts, then repeat. Nothing to measure. Thoughts and emotions are not our enemy, are only Buddha in disguise. Thoughts are just the space between thoughts as thoughts, the space between thoughts is the other clear face of thoughts. It is like saying that the cloudy or cloudless sky is all the sky. Nonetheless, we just sit and do not stir up the clouds.

If you are working hard like a giving masochist, you are doing that to yourself. In sitting Zazen or engaging in other activities on retreat, drop from mind as best you can all ideas of "hard" or "easy," judgments of pain (I know, it is hard and impossible sometimes ... so when feeling like crap if there is no way to escape, just feel like crap and moan) or anyone to "give" or "be given."

Good sitting!

Gassho, J

STLah

[shikantazen]

Thank you Daitetsu and Jundo. I will get there some day . i.e., Will progress to not thinking about progress

Gassho,
Sam
stlah

[Raymund]

I will sometimes count. It depends on my state of mind. It is not something that needs to be done for a certain amount of time before attempting shikantaza, but just a tool for those times that the mind will not settle. After some rounds of counting, I soon find that it can be dropped off and remain open. Sometimes, I count the whole time because every time I stop I start going through an entire scenario in my head and pop back to reality suddenly, wondering how much time I just spent somewhere else. I am quite prone to vivid daydreams.

There are other times I simply sit on the cushion and, a-ha! No need to count. Sometimes I just focus on the breath. Sometimes, I focus on my posture, or simply the feeling of my body. Over time, I stopped picking and choosing methods and instead see it as more like tools in the tool box.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

How do you count your breath? Do you count the inhalations or the exhalations?

Raymund
Sat/Lah

[Rich]

You coukd count exhalations to 10 and start over



[emoji120]
Sat/lah


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[Geika]

How do you count your breath? Do you count the inhalations or the exhalations?

Raymund
Sat/Lah

I would recommend referring to Jundo's advice above. I don't recommend breath counting to replace shikantaza, and should not necessarily be practiced unless one is having immense trouble settling the mind and recommend by one's teacher. Even so, gently concentrating on the in breath and out breath, not forcing it and not counting, is a good way to settle a restless mind into the open awareness of shikantaza. But focusing on the breath, or any object, is not shikantaza.

Gassho
Sat, lah

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[Raymund]

I would recommend referring to Jundo's advice above. I don't recommend breath counting to replace shikantaza, and should not necessarily be practiced unless one is having immense trouble settling the mind and recommend by one's teacher. Even so, gently concentrating on the in breath and out breath, not forcing it and not counting, is a good way to settle a restless mind into the open awareness of shikantaza. But focusing on the breath, or any object, is not shikantaza.

Gassho
Sat, lah

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Noted

Raymund
Sat/Lah

[Juki]

It doesn’t matter to me. It’s 100% my practice whether caught up or not.

In stressful or emotional times practice can be difficult just like life

Sat/lah


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Juki
sat today and lah

[Jundo]

You coukd count exhalations to 10 and start over

Rich, sorry, we do not count here in our Sangha, except as Geika described just above.

It is recommended to follow the breath at first, without counting, then when you can, I recommend that you transition to goalless, "open spacious awareness".

Raymund, have you had a chance to go through our "We're All Beginnners" series? Some sections cover breathing ...

- Zazen for Beginners (11) - The Breath

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14885-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2811%29&p=189094#post189094

If you have some question about that, after you watch the whole "Beginners" series, please post and we can discuss it.

I recently posted elsewhere:

As to Dogen, all he advises (in Fukanzazengi and elsewhere) is to "take a breath and exhale fully", and then turn to "thinking not thinking non thinking". In a section of Eihei Kokoru he is extremely and explicitely critical of breath counting or following (p 114 here https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...nayana&f=false ), calling it a "Lesser Vehicle" practice. He also is not too keen on the "Mahayana" way of breathing from the Hara either, seeming to say "long breaths are long, short are short" not coming or going to anywhere. In my opinion, modern teachers who instruct in counting breath might be helping newcomers get settled a bit (I tell newcomers to follow the breath for awhile or when the head is really running wild), but if they leave students doing so for years,or leave them with the impression that such calming is the point of Shikantaza, they are doing them a disservice. That IS NOT Shikantaza. I am not sure where the breath counting was reintroduced historically, but it is not really introducing students to the power of Shikantaza.

Gassho, Jundo

[Inshin]

In 390 Dharma Hall Discourse Dōgen is critical of Abhidharma Kośa school of counting the breath and contemplating on body's impurities. However I don't really see there criticism of Mahāyāna's (the great vehicle) of tnaden breathing. Dogen explains : " Although exhale and inhale differ, both of them occur depending on the tanden. Impermanence is easy to clarify, and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish. " I cannot find any criticism in that. Dogen would have been trained in tanden breathing. What he does however in this Dharma Discourse, is leaping through the duality making it into a sort of koan.
I guess...

In the
Mahayana there is also a method for regulating breath, which is knowing that one breath is long, another breath is short. The breath reaches the
tanden and comes up from the tanden. Although exhale and inhale differ both of them occur depending on the tanden. Impermanence is easy
to clarify, and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish.
My late teacher Tiantong [Rujing] said, “Breath enters and reaches the
tanden, and yet there is no place from which it comes. Therefore it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden, and yet there is
nowhere it goes. Therefore it is neither short nor long.”
My late teacher said it like that. Suppose someone were to ask Eihei,
“Master, how do you regulate your breath?”
I would simply say to him: Although it is not the great vehicle, it differs from the lesser vehicle. Although it is not the lesser vehicle, it differs
from the great vehicle.
Suppose that person inquired again, “Ultimately, what is it?”
I would say to him: Exhale and inhale are neither long nor short.
Someone asked Baizhang, “The Yogacara Sutra and the Jewel
Necklace Sutra contain the Mahayana precepts. Why don’t you practice
according to them?”
Baizhang said, “What I take as essential is not limited to the greater or
lesser vehicles, and does not differ from the greater or lesser vehicles. I
condense and combine the extensive scope [of regulations] to establish
standards for appropriate conduct.”

Baizhang said it this way, but Eihei is certainly not like this. It is not
the case that it is not limited to the great or small vehicles, or not different from the great or small vehicles. What is this small vehicle? The affairs
of the donkey are not complete. What is this great vehicle? The affairs of
the horse have already arrived. Not the extensive scope means the
extremely great is the same as the small. Not condensed means the
extremely small is the same as the great. I do not combine, but gallop
over and drop away great and small. Already having accomplished this,
how shall we go beyond?
After a pause Dogen said: When healthy and energetic we do zazen
without falling asleep. When hungry we eat rice, and know we are fully
satisfied.

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

In 390 Dharma Hall Discourse Dōgen is critical of Abhidharma Kośa school of counting the breath and contemplating on body's impurities. However I don't really see there criticism of Mahāyāna's (the great vehicle) of tnaden breathing. Dogen explains : " Although exhale and inhale differ, both of them occur depending on the tanden. Impermanence is easy to clarify, and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish. " I cannot find any criticism in that. Dogen would have been trained in tanden breathing.

No criticism, but breathing deeply from the tanden (hara) is not counting breaths.

Also, whatever Dogen was trained in, I personally do not believe in the "ki" system or that the tanden is some magical center of energy, as it has not physiological basic. So, I ask folks just to breathe deeply from a diaphragm.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shinshi]

Hi Sam,

You have gotten really good advice here. I will add that sort of a breakthrough moment for me when it comes to sitting was when I stopped trying hard to do it right.

I would sit but I would sort of be waiting for that thought to bubble up so that I could send it away like a good zen student. Like a cat ready to pounce on a mouse, I would be coiled and ready to go. But it was exhausting. Being on guard all the time. Working hard at sitting.

Jundo's teaching really opened my eyes. I started to stop. I just sat in awareness. Not working to do something, not trying to do it right. Just sitting in awareness of the moment. And it all just settled. Just be like water, reflecting the awareness of the moment. If thoughts come up, just let them go. Don't go here and there. Don't track how it is going. Just sit in awareness. It is just so wonderful.

Don't know if that helps at all.

-sorry to run long

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Tomás ESP]

I find that when I meditate on the breath, I reach a very relaxed yet alert state. But during my day-to-day activities, I find that I end up getting caught up in desire. I wish to feel as relaxed as I did with the morning meditation. And then I start to think, what if I started to cut out other regular activities to meditate MORE to achieve MORE peace and relaxation?

This has changed since switching to Shikantaza. When I sit Shikantaza the trauma, pain, uneasiness is all accepted and embraced. And when things come up in my day, it is all accepted and embraced, as part of the path, as part of life, nowhere to go, nowhere to arrive.

Sorry to run long,

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Jundo]

I find that when I meditate on the breath, I reach a very relaxed yet alert state. But during my day-to-day activities, I find that I end up getting caught up in desire. I wish to feel as relaxed as I did with the morning meditation. And then I start to think, what if I started to cut out other regular activities to meditate MORE to achieve MORE peace and relaxation?

This has changed since switching to Shikantaza. When I sit Shikantaza the trauma, pain, uneasiness is all accepted and embraced. And when things come up in my day, it is all accepted and embraced, as part of the path, as part of life, nowhere to go, nowhere to arrive.

Sorry to run long,

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

And that "accepted and embraced" just "as it is" makes it all quite different than it was.

Gassho, J

STLah