Saying More With Less ...

[robert]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Also, on another but not necessarily unrelated note, does anyone use the Treeleaf IRC? I got my computer all set up with a Firefox chatzilla plug-in, etc, but every time I log on there's only me and "Mika".

Rob

[Jinho]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi Jundo,

Yes I think you have been quite clear. My experience of reading your post is that you have very clearly expressed that you believe you have the right to speak for people other than yourself (or do you believe you are psychic?) and to tell other people what to do (or rather, to strongly suggest what they should do).

Perhaps some other zen sangha is like that, but rather obviously Treeleaf is not.

Hello Ros,

Yes, I have that right (though not psychic), and around here, I suggest what folks should do. Sometimes I
happily tell them what to do too!

Treeleaf is precisely that, a teaching Sangha. I hope you did not have some other impression.

Thank you for your time too. :wink:

Gassho, Jundo (for better or worse, the teacher)

Teaching is about the teacher offering their personal understanding. To assert that your personal understanding is something other than that is, I believe an illusion.

regards,
rowan

[Jinho]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Dear Jundo,

Should someone be here if they don't really consider you 'their teacher' as such?

Thank-you for clarifying this matter further.

Regards,

Harry.

Hi Harry,

I thought we are all here to teach each other? "to be enlightened by all things".

regards,
rowan

[chessie]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

My two cents, just because I love words. This seems to have developed into a discussion regarding form of organization--hierarchy vs something else (I've seen opposites shown as anarchy, tyranny, equality and heterarchy). Just to use the last as a premise, hierarchy involves acceptance of levels of authority. Heterarchy is a form of organization resembling a network, or fishnet. It's a spectrum, and partly why there are 50 zillion Christian denominations from one end to the other of that spectrum.

Here, in deference to the overriding concept of the Middle Way, or as Jundo mentioned the other day, the 'balance in the moment'--we need both. In my opinion, this sangha has been a very successful balance heretofore. Ros--even a fishnet needs a fisherman to pull it in, and cast out the boots that were gathered in with the tuna. Harry--that balance also speaks to -- what someone said--not putting another head on top of our own. But you already knew that. Gassho, Ann

[lora]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

If one only listens to one teacher to the utter exclusion of everything else, then it might just as well be scientology, or perhaps a tibetan lineage.

Some have studied with more than one teacher for many, many years before committing themselves and even then if it's a good teacher they do not expect their student to have a "mind meld"! In some cases the student went to extreme measures (as in lopping off an arm) to convince the teacher they wanted to even accept them.

O.K. children, today we're going to the airport, right after we shave our heads.

Oh, and don't forget your beads.

Many blessings,
Lora

[lora]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

I go sit now.

Lora

[robert]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi,

If you or I were to register for a yoga class, a jazz piano class, a pottery class, etc, there would normally be a teacher. And that teacher would consider it part of his or her job to set some of the parameters for the class. By agreeing to such an arrangement, is one simply a mindless drone or a Scientologist? Of course, at some level the role of "teacher" is as illusory as anything else. Still, there can be practical value to it, especially for beginners.

Also, isn't the teacher-student hierarchy fairly well-established in Zen? If I understand correctly, as a practice which originally claimed to be a teaching "outside the sutras", it has placed high importance on personal transmission. Now, this doesn't mean updates aren't needed, and certainly I hope Jundo isn't going to start attacking us with a virtual fly-swatter.

Gassho,

Rob

[disastermouse]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Well I'm a bit confuddled :?

Jundo has always been the 'teacher' here, it's his gaff 'Treeleaf Sanga', he seems a good teacher and landlord and is very light handed when some decide turn the music up. No bans, heavy moderation...

I have no problem with him asking people to use kind words, think before they post, or not to use it as some sort of group therapy/counselling service.

He's a bit more Ben Kenobi than Darth Vader don't you think :?:

In gassho, Kev

Different teachers do things very differently. As for the 'therapy' question, very often my ex would say, 'I talked to Roshi about our relationship today and I got some very clear insights'.

Those of us who are a bleeding mess will be a bleeding mess no matter where we go. If we are not welcome here as we are, well - that's not much different than most places we go.

Every Sangha I've been to (*I admit, not officially a part of) has had it's psychodramas. The only difference has been whether that psychodrama was open and visible, or whether it was hidden while everyone pretended to be a 'good Buddhist'. Why everyone tries to sweep this stuff under the carpet is beyond me.

As a perfect example - Stephanie and I could have not had somewhat harsh words for each other a while back. We could have hidden our real reactions while speaking 'kind' words - resenting the heck out of each other and resisting absolutely everything the other person wrote for weeks or months. I actually see this kind of behavior in most sanghas. Heck, this kind of behavior is often what tears sanghas apart or drives people away.

My commitment to this sangha is to be as unflinchingly honest as I possible can be. If I'm a mess, I'm expected to hide it from my work peers, the grocer, the banker, and anyone with whom I'm casually acquainted...but a sangha is a place for authentic communication. Am I really expected to hide it from my 'spiritual friends'? And if so, what sort of friends are these?

Don't get me wrong. Abusive behavior is not to be tolerated. But seriously? If someone is posting borderline useful stuff a lot, I actually take it as my practice to tolerate them to the best of my ability. Heck, it's a lot easier on a D/F where you can just ignore or not read those posts. Compared to pedestrian conversations where you have to listen to someone prattle on about their dog or their nephew - the prattle here is positively useful.

[Longdog]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

....or not to use it as some sort of group therapy/counselling service.

OK Chet, I guess I actually don't have a problem with that, within reason, and shouldn't have put that. Yeh the sanga is there to support each other, some thing I've benefitted from myself.

In gassho, Kev

[Dosho]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi All,

For what it's worth, I really don't understand the folks who are giving Jundo a hard time here. He's the teacher and this is his site. If he has certain guidelines he wants folks to follow then we follow them. That isn't mindless...it's agreeing to principles laid out by Jundo or any other group activity. If you don't like them, you don't have to come here. I don't say that to suggest anyone leave by any means..please don't leave! I just mean that this is a place of learning and asking people to think before they type is just prudent. Think of the entire site as an actual zendo and speak to others as you would in any other.

Gassho,
Scott

[disastermouse]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

I can't tell if Harry is pulling my leg or not.

I don't know about talking in the Zendo....Is the discussion forum really the Zendo? I think of it more like the place next to the kitchen where we eat cookies after sitting. Certainly, no one sits in this space.

When I decide to go to the online 'Zendo' and sit, I will be very respectful and VERY quiet. I will follow protocol to the letter. I will even learn Oryoki if Jundo deems it necessary.

Pardon me if I've misunderstood the nature of the discussion forum.

That said, the interaction I've had here has reignited an urge to develop my practice like nothing else has in the last ten years. So thank you for that.

[disastermouse]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

If the forum is the Zendo, we shouldn't speak individually at all.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Yes, what would a dead Japanese guy do?

Regards,

H.

Now you're being rather aggressively nasty.

You should read Will's post about speaking for others.

[Eika]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

I'm hesitant to wade in here, but here goes:
It seems that some of the reaction to Jundo's post is a bit off balance. All I read in his post was the same thing that other Zen teachers in the past have said. I'm paraphrasing, but things like, "Choose your words carefully, weighing cost and benefit of them." "Whenever you have the urge to speak, act on those urges only one time out of ten." And so on. I cannot remember hearing or reading where a Zen teacher has suggested that we speak more or that we must express ourselves more. Otherwise, we risk taking our thoughts too seriously by believing that they are all worthy of sharing. So, economy with words appears to be a theme in Zen in my experience.
I don't want to live under some kind of censorship, but that's not what I see here.

S. Suzuki: "Most people who visit a Zen Center find it a strange place. "They do not talk so much. They do not even laugh. What are they doing?" Those who are accustomed to big noises may not notice, but we can communicate without talking so much." Not Always So, p. 11.

Bill

[Gregor]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

This is just getting a bit silly.