Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path

[Kevin Benbow]

Thank-you all so much for your patience with my incessant questions.

It occurs to me that zazen springs from the Eightfold Path.

It is no secret that there have been zen teachers who have harmed others by engaging in sexual misconduct and sadly a host of other improprieties.

While I find that a side benefit of zazen for me is that it cultivates a "quieter spirit" and helps me fight off the noxious effects of the three poisons, the eightfold path and the precepts can be basically understood and followed by the novice of novices.

So, to me it seems, that the full practice of Zen Buddhism includes the whole of the Eightfold path with the precepts. To me it seems that a person can have the right concentration portion of the path nailed but woefully lack if he or she lies, steals, or commits sexual misconduct. Even though they sit Sesshins without number, dukkha continues.

Likewise, a person who rigidly follows the precepts and eightfold but neglects right concentration simply adheres to a code of ethics and suffers in duality.

Am I on the right track here?



Kevin

sat today.

[Junkyo]

Thank-you all so much for your patience with my incessant questions.

It occurs to me that zazen springs from the Eightfold Path.

It is no secret that there have been zen teachers who have harmed others by engaging in sexual misconduct and sadly a host of other improprieties.

While I find that a side benefit of zazen for me is that it cultivates a "quieter spirit" and helps me fight off the noxious effects of the three poisons, the eightfold path and the precepts can be basically understood and followed by the novice of novices.

So, to me it seems, that the full practice of Zen Buddhism includes the whole of the Eightfold path with the precepts. To me it seems that a person can have the right concentration portion of the path nailed but woefully lack if he or she lies, steals, or commits sexual misconduct. Even though they sit Sesshins without number, dukkha continues.

Likewise, a person who rigidly follows the precepts and eightfold but neglects right concentration simply adheres to a code of ethics and suffers in duality.

Am I on the right track here?



Kevin

sat today.

Hi Kevin,

My understanding is that the act of sitting Zazen is the entire path. That is to say that when we sit, our sitting contains the it all, the precepts, the 8 fold path... All of it. The path is complete in the act of sitting.

I have likely grossly over simplified and I am certain Jundo or one of the priests will soon come along and explain it much more clearly, and correct me along the way as well lol.

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Kyōsen]

The wonderful thing about Zen is that it can help us to see that the Three Higher Trainings (a way to summarize the Eightfold Path) are fulfilled naturally and easily through keeping the precepts and sitting zazen. The Higher Trainings are ethical conduct, concentration, and wisdom. In keeping the precepts we develop ethical conduct. The keeping of precepts pairs well with zazen to develop concentration, and concentration in and out of zazen leads to the development of wisdom which, itself, shows us why the precepts are important and beneficial to everyone.

When we sit in zazen we are fulfilling the precepts (since we cannot do think, say, or do anything that would violate them while we're sitting) as Junkyo wrote. It's quite a remarkable practice and Dogen was right to place such a strong emphasis on it.

And the great thing about the Four Noble Truths is they contain the Eightfold Path (I'm not sure if you've heard about the symbolism of the elephant's foot in Buddhism or not). The truth of dukkha, the cause of dukkha, the end of dukkha, and the path to the end of dukkha. We get to see, understand, and accomplish these in our zen practice through keeping the precepts and sitting zazen. Through the development of concentration and wisdom we come to see not only the First Truth but also the Second Truth, the Third Truth is like a hopeful message of encouragement - one more reason to sit every day we can - and the Fourth Truth is the Three Higher Trainings all over again.

I think this is the brilliant thing about the Buddha's teachings; they all inter-connect and exist within one another. None of them are truly separate, but they are presented separately for our benefit. Zazen helps us to see how they are all connected and stem from the same source.

Gassho
Sen
Sat|LAH

[Rich]

The first noble truth is that the unenlightened, Unexamined life is suffering or sorrow.

The second is that the cause is desire.

The third is the eightfold path which is right mindfulness or awareness in the various dimensions.

The fourth is the cessation of suffering or sorrow which is attained by following the previous three.

The precepts are guides for behavior.

The practice of meditation/ zazen is the most fundamental teaching as pointed to by the first noble truth

Sat/lah


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[Kevin Benbow]

It makes sense. I can certainly understand that while sitting there will be no violation of the precepts.

I guess what dawned on me is that sitting with no regard for the precepts or ethics in general (i.e., a life largely characterized by criminal behavior, sexual misconduct, etc.) is still going to be full of suffering.

I'm a novice, but it just seems to me that suffering is eliminated by following the whole path.

There is a chapter in the Shobogenzo that encourages us to "avoid all evil whatsoever." Dogen is saying this to monks who sit regularly, so this makes me think that there are times we will need to use our right concentration and right effort in order to have right intentions and views (i.e., observance of the precepts). In other words, I will have to make complex decisions about whether to do or not do something.

<Gassho>

Kevin

sat today

[Junkyo]

It makes sense. I can certainly understand that while sitting there will be no violation of the precepts.

I guess what dawned on me is that sitting with no regard for the precepts or ethics in general (i.e., a life largely characterized by criminal behavior, sexual misconduct, etc.) is still going to be full of suffering.

I'm a novice, but it just seems to me that suffering is eliminated by following the whole path.

There is a chapter in the Shobogenzo that encourages us to "avoid all evil whatsoever." Dogen is saying this to monks who sit regularly, so this makes me think that there are times we will need to use our right concentration and right effort in order to have right intentions and views (i.e., observance of the precepts). In other words, I will have to make complex decisions about whether to do or not do something.

<Gassho>

Kevin

sat today

Life is always going to have pain, and ups and downs. What leads to suffering is how we perceive these ups and downs and pain. If we have aversion to them we will suffer. If we accept them as facts of being alive and having human life we wont suffer so much.

Just as we sit with things "just as they are" we have to accept and make friends woth our every day troubles "just as they are".

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Kevin Benbow]

Life is always going to have pain, and ups and downs. What leads to suffering is how we perceive these ups and downs and pain. If we have aversion to them we will suffer. If we accept them as facts of being alive and having human life we wont suffer so much.

Just as we sit with things "just as they are" we have to accept and make friends woth our every day troubles "just as they are".

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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Thanks Junkyo.

I certainly agree that we will always have pain and suffering. It also makes sense that the more we learn to sit with things the way they are the less we will suffer.

That said, does not sexual misconduct also cause needless suffering for everybody involved? Does not the abuse of alcohol or other drugs not also lead to suffering for the users and their loved ones?

I mean, sitting is how we learn to accept things. It can also help us accept things that might otherwise lead us to substance abuse or sexual misconduct.

I guess it just seems important to me to be mindful of the precepts to help keep our lives between the ethical ditches.

gassho

klb

sat today

[Kyōsen]

It makes sense. I can certainly understand that while sitting there will be no violation of the precepts.

I guess what dawned on me is that sitting with no regard for the precepts or ethics in general (i.e., a life largely characterized by criminal behavior, sexual misconduct, etc.) is still going to be full of suffering.

I'm a novice, but it just seems to me that suffering is eliminated by following the whole path.

There is a chapter in the Shobogenzo that encourages us to "avoid all evil whatsoever." Dogen is saying this to monks who sit regularly, so this makes me think that there are times we will need to use our right concentration and right effort in order to have right intentions and views (i.e., observance of the precepts). In other words, I will have to make complex decisions about whether to do or not do something.

<Gassho>

Kevin

sat today

Yes, I think you're correct. Dogen and the Buddha and all of our Dharma Ancestors trust in our intelligence and in our sincere intentions to act for the benefit of everyone. When we sit, we allow the mind to settle and things become clear, when we allow things to be-as-they-are in zazen we give ourselves a chance to see through the obscurations that cloud our mind from our natural wishes for happiness and liberation. I'm not sure what, if anything, Dogen had to say about analytical meditation - I have a feeling he may have felt it unnecessary but, even so, I think it's good for us to think deeply about the precepts and what it means to cultivate good ethical conduct.

And when it comes to making complex decisions, if we're stuck, we have the Three Jewels at all times including the Dharma and the Sangha. Sometimes we are too close to our problems to see them clearly in the same way that someone searching their house for their glasses may not notice them sitting on their own face already. In this way, we may wish to consider asking a kalyāṇa-mitta or a spiritual/noble/virtuous friend.

I think we are extraordinarily fortunate to have a community of such wise and kind practitioners who we can ask questions of at any time, day or night.

Gassho
Sen
Sat|LAH

[Junkyo]

Thanks Junkyo.

I certainly agree that we will always have pain and suffering. It also makes sense that the more we learn to sit with things the way they are the less we will suffer.

That said, does not sexual misconduct also cause needless suffering for everybody involved? Does not the abuse of alcohol or other drugs not also lead to suffering for the users and their loved ones?

I mean, sitting is how we learn to accept things. It can also help us accept things that might otherwise lead us to substance abuse or sexual misconduct.

I guess it just seems important to me to be mindful of the precepts to help keep our lives between the ethical ditches.

gassho

klb

sat today

Hey Kevin!

Absolutely keeping the precepts is important, and yes unskillful actions cause harm and suffering to many people and so we should avoid acting in harmful ways. Sitting Zazen is a great way to avoid doing harm! We also learn to carry that off the cushion into every day life.

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Jakuden]

You are exactly right Kevin, during one of my first Ango group meetings we were talking about the Three Refuges... if Buddha is enlightenment, why do we need Dharma and Sangha? I theorized that without Dharma, the teachings, and Sangha, the others practicing with you, Enlightenment could be like the Dark Side of the Force. In the absolute, what does it matter if someone is killed or something is stolen, for there is no separation when we are enlightened; we drop it all. But in the relative world we live in daily, these things cause great suffering so we must also follow the Eightfold Path, the Precepts and learn from our teachers.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Onka]

Thanks Junkyo.

I certainly agree that we will always have pain and suffering. It also makes sense that the more we learn to sit with things the way they are the less we will suffer.

That said, does not sexual misconduct also cause needless suffering for everybody involved? Does not the abuse of alcohol or other drugs not also lead to suffering for the users and their loved ones?

I mean, sitting is how we learn to accept things. It can also help us accept things that might otherwise lead us to substance abuse or sexual misconduct.

I guess it just seems important to me to be mindful of the precepts to help keep our lives between the ethical ditches.

gassho

klb

sat today

I think it was comrade Tokan who said something along the lines that (and this is a broad sweeping paraphrase) if we are not mindful of the interconnectedness of things at all times our practice risks essentially becoming a hobby and at its worst a caricature of the teaching.
Gassho
Anna
stlah

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[Kyōsen]

I think it was comrade Tokan who said something along the lines that (and this is a broad sweeping paraphrase) if we are not mindful of the interconnectedness of things at all times our practice risks essentially becoming a hobby and at its worst a caricature of the teaching.

This is an excellent reminder, thank you Anna!

Gassho
Sen
Sat|LAH

[Kevin Benbow]

Thanks to all of you.

I really like the "Dark side of the Force" analogy. There have been some gifted zen teachers, christian ministers, therapists, and others who had all of their good works wiped out by bad conduct. Their families suffered. Their students, patients, and other people around them suffered as well.

I'm tempted to think that adherence to the precepts is a good barometer for one to measure their practice.

gassho

kevin

sat today

[Jundo]

The Precepts and Zazen are one. If one practices Zazen, dropping judgments of "good and bad" on the cushion, but then gets up and robs, burns, kills and cheats, then one is in a kind of "dark side" and has missed the power of these teachings. There is no Precept which can be broken while sitting on the cushion yet, getting up and out into the world, constant opportunities to do good or bad.

Likewise, one who is filled with excess desire, anger and violence, jealousy and other divided thinking, is most unlikely to get the fruits of Zazen.

Yes, someone (even a teacher who has gone off the rails) can have great insight into wisdom and compassion, and also have a dark aspect that does harm.

Thus, we study the Precepts in preparation for Jukai, and seek to bring them to life.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?57-JUKAI-PRECEPTS-STUDY-SEWING-FORUM-%28Oryoki-Tonglen-Too%21%29

Very simple.

Suzuki Roshi famously said, "You are perfect just as you are, yet you could use a little work" to get rid of the bad parts.

The whole Eightfold Path is our Path too. I spoke about that a bit here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?64-Buddha-Basics

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kevin Benbow]

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho

Klb

Sat today.