Is Buddhism a religion?

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 41030

    #31
    Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

    Hi Mountaintop,

    Good to hear from you.

    Your post is a very accurate description of my experience of how Buddhism is practiced in most of Asia. As well, Buddhism has certainly changed in many ways as it has come into Western cultures, just as it changed in important ways over the centuries ...

    I mean, it is different ... but the same. Let me explain. Here is what I usually post on this topic.

    But one thing for folks to remember is that Buddhism did change and evolve over many centuries, as it passed from culture to culture in Asia. The Buddha lived 2500 years ago in ancient India, whereupon the philosophy passed to China 1000 years later, and then to someone like Master Dogen who lived about 1000 years after that in medieval Japan. You and I live in the strange world known as the 21st century. Certainly, some changes arose along the way in some important interpretations and outer forms. For example, the Chinese made Zen Practice very Chinese, the Japanese very medieval Japanese, and now we are making it very Western.

    However, the Heart of the Buddha's teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Non-Self, Non-Attachment, the Middle Way, etc. etc., ... All are here now as much as there then!!

    How?

    On the one hand some outer stuff is, well, changed. For example, when Buddhism came to China it was heavily influenced by, and pretty much merged with, Taoism (not to mention that it was already "Mahayana Buddhism" by that time, a very different flavor from the original). The result was this little thing we now call "Zen Buddhism". So, congratulations, we are already "Taoists" and "Mahayana Buddhists" ... not just "Buddhists". When it got to Japan, the Japanese added Japanese culture to it. In the West, we are now making some very good changes (although we have to, of course, try to avoid bad changes). These good changes include equality of the sexes and a greater emphasis on lay practice.

    But it is still Buddhism. What Dogen taught was Buddhism. What we do around Treeleaf (I do believe) is as Buddhism as Buddhism can be.

    I will even go so far as to say (and this is the kind of statement that has gotten me into all kinds of trouble on with some folks in Buddhism's own fundamentalist quarters) that maybe, just maybe, later Buddhism actually made some big and important "improvements" to the Buddha's original formulation with all those additions, and a couple of thousand years of working out the kinks and bugs. It is much like saying that Buddha was Henry Ford, who first thought up the brilliant idea of sticking 4 wheels on an internal combustion engine, but now we can drive a Prius! I even say that maybe, just maybe, the Buddha was not infallible on every darn thing. Not on the vital heart of the teachings, mind you. But while he was 90% right in his proposals, he maybe also had some klunkers and narrow ideas here and there (as fits a man who lived in a traditional, myth based society some 2500 years ago in ancient India) ... like the whole thing about an overly mechanical view of rebirth, the place of women, the need to abandon the world and family in order to Practice and to repress or extinquish (as opposed to moderate & balance & pierce) the desires and emotions. ...

    Dogen was different from Shakyamuni Buddha, who are both different from all of us.

    But when we are sitting a moment of Zazen ... perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... piercing Dukkha, attaining non-self, non-attached ... then there is not the slightest gap between each of us and the Buddha.

    Gassho, Jundo
    I would add that, in the West for lay people who are not of Asian heritage and did not come to Buddhism as their "family religion", it is not about the things that you describe in your post, Mountain .... the worship, intervention with spirits, hoping for good luck, praying for a dead ancestor, etc.

    It is about Practice, at least for the meditation schools. That is a good thing, a good development. I believe.

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Shonin
      Member
      • Apr 2009
      • 885

      #32
      Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

      From a little reading of blogs here and there, this seems to be a debate ( probably an argument somewhere or many somewheres) that has come up recently.

      My view is..does it matter what we label it? Who are we labelling it for? To understand it is to practice it. Logic and intellectualizing only go so far.So why worry about whether it is or isn't? For me the practice is what it is.

      As far as deities and what not. I have the view that even if they exist...what ARE they? What Is their place? And then ...does it matter? In sitting zazen I believe I please them all..if they exist.

      When it comes to anything "supernatural" I niether dismiss nor accept. We don't know that great mystical powers don't exist. We don't know that they do. I feel I have experienced things "supernatural"..to me they are just natural.. nothing super..just are what they are. But at the same time I could have been completely delusional in those moments, and thinking myself the careful skeptic when in the end it was just some normal science based everyday occurrence with no mysticism whatsoever.

      If we close ourselves to them, we won't experience them. Even if they are right in our faces..we'll miss them because we dismissed them as something else.But if we're all superstitious than a "normal" everyday happening becomes some great mysterious thing because we just can't accept that it wasn't some rare occurrence.

      Dave _/_

      Dave _/_

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 41030

        #33
        Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

        Originally posted by ZenDave
        From a little reading of blogs here and there, this seems to be a debate ( probably an argument somewhere or many somewheres) that has come up recently.

        My view is..does it matter what we label it? Who are we labelling it for? To understand it is to practice it. Logic and intellectualizing only go so far.So why worry about whether it is or isn't? For me the practice is what it is.

        As far as deities and what not. I have the view that even if they exist...what ARE they? What Is their place? And then ...does it matter? In sitting zazen I believe I please them all..if they exist.

        When it comes to anything "supernatural" I niether dismiss nor accept. We don't know that great mystical powers don't exist. We don't know that they do. I feel I have experienced things "supernatural"..to me they are just natural.. nothing super..just are what they are. But at the same time I could have been completely delusional in those moments, and thinking myself the careful skeptic when in the end it was just some normal science based everyday occurrence with no mysticism whatsoever.

        If we close ourselves to them, we won't experience them. Even if they are right in our faces..we'll miss them because we dismissed them as something else.But if we're all superstitious than a "normal" everyday happening becomes some great mysterious thing because we just can't accept that it wasn't some rare occurrence.

        Dave _/_

        Dave _/_
        Hi Dave,

        Just today, on another thread, I posted a couple of things on this topic that I write from time to time. Please have a look ...

        http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... gness.html

        http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... nking.html

        I am sure others will have much to add here too.

        Gassho, Jundo
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Shui_Di
          Member
          • Apr 2008
          • 210

          #34
          Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

          Originally posted by Gautami
          Hello Sangha... What do you think? If yes, what makes it so? How do you define "religion"? Are some Buddhist traditions more "religions" than others? What makes it so?

          Another question: I have prayer flags hanging over my front door, and someone asked me "what is this?" and I answered "Prayer flags"...
          Then she asked "if you don't believe in God, who do you pray to?" Help me with this... what would you answer to a conservative Christian, with approx. 10th grade education... (my understanding would not make any sense to her).

          Curious of your responses
          with Gassho
          G.
          "if you don't believe in God, who do you pray to?"

          some of my friend also ask me that question, and I just said," who said that I don't believe in God, only our way to understand God is different."

          You understand God as some one that you can ask for something, about new car or new house.

          I understand God as something perfect, which inside it there is no good or bad, high and low, which never born and died, no appear or disappear, is the perfect one. This is God. This is the reality. This is the Way.

          And God cannot be separated from us. We are inside God, and God inside us. It's beyond analytical thinking.

          So, if some said I don't believe in God, he is wrong. I believe in It, and I live with It.

          You think God as something separated to you, that's why you feel lack something in your life, and that's why you need to pray and ask.

          I understand God as something that cannot be separated for us. That's why, we never lack of something, and no need to ask more.

          Gassho, Mujo
          Practicing the Way means letting all things be what they are in their Self-nature. - Master Dogen.

          Comment

          • Frankiel
            Member
            • Feb 2009
            • 61

            #35
            Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

            Indisputably, Buddhism is a religion.

            I, however, am not.



            Edited to add a comma.
            "and if i claim to be a wise man, it surely means that i don't know"

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