Is Buddhism a religion?

[Kanno]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Hmmm... That is truly an interesting question.

The answer (as I would think of it), has been posted earlier. Even so, I'd like to make my voice heard.

It depends on what you think of it. To me, the word "religion" has the same connotation as "faith". Whatever the definition (and those were some very interesting links), if an ideology is based on faith (rather than observation) then it is a religion. If I use that as my marker, then buddhism isn't a religion... At least to me. It focuses on observing the world and yourself (and the lack of boundary between one and the other), rather than believing in a supernatural force.

Thinking of it in another way, if you are faced with the death of a loved one, buddhism would invite you to realize that death is something that simply must happen as a natural part of life. In addition, the teachings would suggest that by "wishing" the person back instead of letting them go, you would be causing yourself more sorrow.

Alternately, Christianity (at least in my experience) would tell you that "they are in a better place now", something which you would simply have to take on faith. Usually, the person involved would also say "it's part of god's plan", again requiring faith in the existence of said god. Now, I am willing to admit that both of these can bring comfort to one who believes. But if you do not, they sound hollow indeed. Most other religions would have similar reactions to the situation (again, in my limited experience).

As for the comment on prayers, I have a story which I rather enjoyed at the time. (Plus I like to tell it.)

My mother (a very devout christian) once asked me "So, you're not christian?"
I responded "No. I am a buddhist."
She was somewhat taken aback and said "So, who do you pray to?"
I was honestly confused for a moment, then replied "You are making a basic assumption which is incorrect."
Mom: "What's that?"
Me: "You are assuming that I pray. I don't."
Mom: "So what are you doing while you're meditating?"
Me: "Ummm... Meditating."

She seemed to think I was being a smartass, and it took some explaining to convince her that it was an honest answer.

In any case, I'll end the wall of text now.

Gassho

-Kanno

[Hans]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Hello Gautami!

IMHO Buddhism is definitely a religion. If one subtracts the idealized and highly intellectualized mainly western ideas about what Buddhism as a whole is or should be (meaning the last 100 years basically), and if one then turns to the hundreds of millions of practitioners with hundreds of years of continuous tradition who still represent the majority of Buddhists by far, one will find in daily life all the mindsets, rituals, regalia, superstitions etc. to rival any catholic convention.


Gassho, Hans


P.S. Haven't read Mr. Heine's latest essay collection yet, but "Zen Ritual" is supposed to present a certain side of Zen buddhist reality in Japan which couldn't be further from our lovely idealistic notions of "just my zafu and the universe".

[Mensch]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Is Buddhism a religion?
Is Pluto a planet?
Is a Toyota RAV4 an offroad vehicle?
Is Europe really a continent?

Who cares – really?
When someone says Buddhism is a religion, I reply: No, it isn’t. When somone says no, I insist it is. Beyond that I never bothered.

Regards,
Mensch

[disastermouse]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

I think of Buddhism as a religion because it has a set of practices that go with the philosophy. There are central tenets and a basic path of practice.

Oddly, by this definition, Protestant Christianity is more of a philosophy than a religion - as it has more to do with asserting belief in certain tenets than in any certain practice whereby one can know God.

[Mensch]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

I think of Buddhism as a religion because it has a set of practices that go with the philosophy. There are central tenets and a basic path of practice.

That's why I use to say that economy, science and maybe even sex are basically religions.

[robert]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Hello...I'm new here, just wanted to dip my feet in the water so to speak...

I think "philosophical Buddhism" is valid -- who am I to say that it isn't? -- but certain problems arise. For example, sooner or later you run into "devotional Buddhism", which, as Hans mentioned, actually accounts for the vast majority of Buddhist practice. Moreover, when you begin looking at the sutras, you find that they contain supernatural language and concepts. The effort to strip them away can become tiring and unproductive, plus it limits the possibilities for interaction. It may be a happier approach simply to acknowledge Buddhism as a religion, albeit one whose core teachings correlate unusually well with a rational understanding of the cosmos.

On another note, it seems to me that the distinction between philosophy and religion is not clear-cut in some parts of the world where Buddhism is practiced -- in China, for example. Confucianism would strike most Westerners as a philosophy, but there are Confucian temples. There is folk Taoism and philosophical Taoism. Likewise people seem to freely move between "intellectual" and "devotional" Buddhism. Maybe it is a more holistic outlook...

Best regards, Rob

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

My wife says she doesn't care how people look at it so long as I personally don't take it on as a "religion", the "philosophy" is fine. She's struggling with my departure from traditional Christianity and moving towards a more serious, devout Buddhist practice.

[Jundo]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Please see what I wrote in the "Ignorance is Bliss" thread ... two birds with one stone ...

viewtopic.php?p=14521#p14521

[Gautami]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Hello ScottyDoo... I have always been fascinated by the impression that so many Buddhists, (majority of?) Buddhist scholars and a majority of Buddhist traditions treat and refer to Buddhism as a religion. There are many implications in refering to the tradition as 'religion' (regardless of the meaning of the word) - see your wife's comment "...so long as I personally don't take it on as a "religion", the "philosophy" is fine." I have been reading every one's responses with interest... thank you. Posted the question while being curious what you all think about it.

My wife says she doesn't care how people look at it so long as I personally don't take it on as a "religion", the "philosophy" is fine. She's struggling with my departure from traditional Christianity and moving towards a more serious, devout Buddhist practice.

I, personally, am not devotionally inclined therefore more attracted to the philosophical aspect of Buddhism. Because of my personal preferences, and for the sake of principle (of respecting all preferences), I reacted to your (or your wife's) statement "...moving towards a more serious, devout Buddhist practice".

Using Yoga as an example, there are devotional, philosophical, as well as integrative (Raja Yoga) traditions, yet I have not heard any reference to which one is more serious. Also, for the sake of curiosity, what is making Christianity (clearly and strongly devotional) less serious than devotional Buddhism?

Also, if I understand you correctly, what about 'devout Buddhist practice' makes it more serious than philosophical?

I feel I have missunderstood your statement...
Thanks for your thoughts ScottyDoo
G.

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

I, personally, am not devotionally inclined therefore more attracted to the philosophical aspect of Buddhism. Because of my personal preferences, and for the sake of principle (of respecting all preferences), I reacted to your (or your wife's) statement "...moving towards a more serious, devout Buddhist practice".

Using Yoga as an example, there are devotional, philosophical, as well as integrative (Raja Yoga) traditions, yet I have not heard any reference to which one is more serious. Also, for the sake of curiosity, what is making Christianity (clearly and strongly devotional) less serious than devotional Buddhism?

Also, if I understand you correctly, what about 'devout Buddhist practice' makes it more serious than philosophical?

I feel I have missunderstood your statement...
Thanks for your thoughts ScottyDoo
G.

I may not have used the term 'devout' properly. I see in the dictionary there are a few different meanings. Traditionally I guess it is used in reference to religion, or similar, whereas I meant in this sense, as outlined by Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

devoted to a pursuit, belief, or mode of behavior

When I say my 'devout Buddhist practice', what I'm truly saying is that I'm serious and dedicated to learning and understanding and to take on the precepts and philosophies as a way of life. It is much more than just a current interest or fad for me. So I don't see it personally for myself as a religion by my definition, but I could see how it could be taken that way.

As an example, some people choose to be Vegetarians/Vegans. Many are hardcore, serious believers in the philosophies/reasons to follow that path.

Is it a religion? No
Is it a lifestyle? Yes.

That's kind of how I see Buddhism...it's a lifestyle of sorts, though a little more perhaps.

[Gautami]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

ScottyDoo... thank you for clarifying for me...

Your writing reminds me someone's, someplace, statement: "They don't like me being a Buddhist, but they love me when I am a Buddha." Meaning we have often problems with people (or they have with us ) when we say "I am a Buddhist", but they love us when we actually behave like one... :wink:

with metta
G.

[Jundo]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

ScottyDoo... thank you for clarifying for me...

Your writing reminds me someone's, someplace, statement: "They don't like me being a Buddhist, but they love me when I am a Buddha." Meaning we have often problems with people (or they have with us ) when we say "I am a Buddhist", but they love us when we actually behave like one... :wink:

with metta
G.

I did a "sit-a-long" talk on this subject during the Christmas season ... very common issue for that season (and cooling to listen to in the heat of August) ...

http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2007/12 ... ng-to.html

[Alberto]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Mensch said

Is Buddhism a religion?
Is Pluto a planet?
Is a Toyota RAV4 an offroad vehicle?
Is Europe really a continent?

Who cares – really?
When someone says Buddhism is a religion, I reply: No, it isn’t. When somone says no, I insist it is. Beyond that I never bothered.

Danke

On the other hand, if we insist on confronting concepts and verbal conventions, I'll paraphrase Nishijima Roshi in that religion is the set of beliefs on which your actions are based. Thus, atheism is a religion and you act based on the belief that there ain't no stinkin' gawd; shunning religion altogether is a religion in which you act believing that religion is irrelevant, etc. Acts, and not wooden icons or speeches, tell us what your religion is.

This is a derivative of a cliche: buddhism is not a religion, but as many religions as there are people following buddhist teachings.

America is the only real continent, by the way.

[disastermouse]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Mensch said

Is Buddhism a religion?
Is Pluto a planet?
Is a Toyota RAV4 an offroad vehicle?
Is Europe really a continent?

Who cares – really?
When someone says Buddhism is a religion, I reply: No, it isn’t. When somone says no, I insist it is. Beyond that I never bothered.

Danke

On the other hand, if we insist on confronting concepts and verbal conventions, I'll paraphrase Nishijima Roshi in that religion is the set of beliefs on which your actions are based. Thus, atheism is a religion and you act based on the belief that there ain't no stinkin' gawd; shunning religion altogether is a religion in which you act believing that religion is irrelevant, etc.

This reminds me of a Steve Hagen talk where he says that arguments between Atheists and Christians are arguments between to believers, not arguments between believers and non-believers.

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Is Buddhism a religion?

Buddhism is certainly a religion. When you have a system of monks and nuns, prayers, idols, chants, scriptures, etc, I think it's pretty safe to say that you have a religion on your hands. And the thing is that popular Buddhism in Asia is overwhelmingly religious in a way that I think few Western Buddhists are aware of. Buddhists where I live don't meditate, don't debate koans, none of that, unless they're monks (who here are celibate, vegetarian monastics 24/7). Lay Buddhists go to the temple and pray to the appropriate deity that their kid does well on the college entrance exam, they get that promotion at work, or they have a son instead of a daughter. Occasionally they'll burn some fake money for a dead relative. And this is more or less what Buddhism is in every part of Asia. The gods aren't metaphors, they are real, existing beings, and you want to get on their good side. The rituals aren't to affirm intention, they're to tangibly affect reality. There's no "real" Buddhism that accords with Western principles of the Enlightenment, as a lot of Western seekers imagine; from the earliest records we have in the Pali canon, we have Buddha doing magic tricks, traveling to other realms, performing miracles, etc. And from the earliest Mahayana scriptures we have loads of supernatural nonsense. I think there's a certain amount of arrogance in the "Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion" shtick, kind of a Victorian attitude like those benighted brown people don't get their own religion, but we understand the full import of it.