Numb Legs

[Victor]

Hello all! Since it has been some time since the most recent posts on this topic, as far as I could find in a search, I wanted to ask again:

I sit in the Burmese position since my knees can't seem to handle half or full lotus and I seem to weigh a bit too much for my zafu to be able to support seiza. That said, after only 20 minutes, my left leg goes so numb that I can hardly feel my foot and I struggle to stand. Walking is incredibly unpleasant

Does anyone have any advice for how to avoid this? Should I perhaps take a little longer before I stand? Or is my only real option to lose this 30 or so pounds I need to lose?

Gassho
SatToday

[Junkyo]

Try some leg and hip stretches before sitting. Loosening things up a bit may help some.


Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[threethirty]

For me i switch which leg is in front and keep sitting. You dont need to feel your legs whilst sitting anyway

Just make sure to wake them up before you start walking around, it can be dangerous if you dont.

[emoji1374]

Washu

Sat today lah

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[Victor]

Thank you both so much! Unfortunately stretching doesn't help a whole lot, but I'm going to continue stretching first anyway. I may try putting a regular cushion under my zafu and see if it makes any difference.

My wife recommends stretching my legs before I stand as well, so I'll try that too.

[threethirty]

Thank you both so much! Unfortunately stretching doesn't help a whole lot, but I'm going to continue stretching first anyway. I may try putting a regular cushion under my zafu and see if it makes any difference.

My wife recommends stretching my legs before I stand as well, so I'll try that too.

I didnt realize you werent using a zabuton. You might give that a shot. The stretching before and after will never hurt, and no matter what.... just sit

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[Kyoshin]

Stretching is good, but it can be a slow process, so you may need to be patient to see improvement. Core strengthening is also helpful for zazen, because if you can hold yourself up better, you'll put less pressure on your legs and hips. Of course it might not help, depending on what you have going on. If your leg is going numb because you have, for example, really narrow openings in your hips that pinch the nerves, stretching won't help that so much. On the other hand, a good stretching regimen is one of the best things you can do for your physical body in general so I recommend it anyway. If your cushion is too squishy for seiza, you can try yoga blocks turned on their side with or without a pillow on top. They're pretty cheap and won't collapse like a soft cushion. Seiza benches are fantastic, but expensive, and not everyone likes them so I'd recommend testing one out at a Zen center if possible before dropping a bunch of money on one. And don't discount chair zazen!

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Jishin]

A patient walks into the examination room and says "hey doctor, when I go like this it hurts."

Doctor replies "Don't go like this then."

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Shokai]

Victor;

Don't give up too soon. As Kyoshin says, be patient and take the time to stretch (and relax) before you sit. And, say some metta for yourself

gassho, Shokai

stlah

[Jundo]

It is the sciatic nerve being pressed, nothing dangerous if just for a time. I just lean a little to the side, like the Tower of Pisa, when it happens, taking the pressure of the nerve and it usually vanishes.

More here ...

=====

This book on posture during Zazen is highly recommended around here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION&highlight=posture+sitting+johnson

Usually, legs which tingle or "fall asleep" are due putting some pressure on the sciatic nerve ...

My friend, Rev. Nonin Chowaney (Nebraska Zen Center) writes this ...

There are many ways to sit zazen: full-lotus, half-lotus, quarter-lotus (with foot on calf), burmese (with both feet on the floor), seiza (Japanese kneeling posture) with the zafu on it's side, seiza on two zafus (one on top of the others), seiza on a bench, and sitting in a chair (this is frequently necessary for those who have injured themselves or with joint replacements). Also, some people with severe physical problems or illness sit zazen lying down.

I recommend to all beginners that they sit as close to full lotus posture as they can for as long as they can. I also suggest that they sit somewhere between wimp and macho. Sit until it becomes uncomfortable, and then sit a few minutes more before you change postures. If you change too soon, you won't stretch out. On the other hand, don't tough it out for so long that you do yourself damage.

Also, learn the difference between soft tissue or muscle pain and nerve pain. Everyone's legs fall asleep from time to time. Sometimes bending forward will take the pressure off the sciatic nerve and the legs will wake up. If your legs are asleep at the end of a sitting and they come back quickly as you stretch them out and get up, I wouldn't worry about it. If they don't and the numbness persists for some time, don't sit the way you have been. You can damage nerves. If you damage 1/8" of a nerve, it can take months to heal.

Anytime you hold the body in a specific position, it will hurt. Just try holding your arm out parallel to the floor for any length of time. Sitting zazen for any length of time will hurt most people, although some can without pain. I have never been very limber, and I sat seiza for three years when I first started while I did exercises and stretched out. Then, I was able to sit burmese style. Eventually I was able to sit quarter-lotus and then half-lotus. I've never been able to sit full-lotus, and as I've aged, I've gone back to quarter lotus. Also, I have a knee problem, and when it flared up severely a couple of years ago, I spent six months sitting in a chair.

When my legs begin to "fall asleep", I lightly shift my weight on the Zafu to the left or right (or front or back) as needed to slightly take my weight off the top of my thigh. That seems to work. Also, if sitting in Full or Half Lotus, I will "gassho" and untangle my legs (usually into Burmese) about a minute or two before I need to stand up. The feeling is usually back by that time.

If not, I usually do what I call the "butt shift" , gently putting my weight slightly more on one butt cheek or the other, while lightening the load on the other, or subtly shifting slightly back or forth. It tends to take the pressure of the nerve. If you really need too, you might also try untangling the legs a bit about a minute before the bell will ring.

Also, is you underwear too tight, your pants pinching your upper thigh or circulation? (This is one reason that we wear loose fitting trousers in Zazen ... and avoid Jeans and such).

I might just add that our Zazen is often practice in microcosm for experiencing our whole life. Our lives are sometimes pain, including physical pain. Zazen recognizes that fact. We have to embrace that fact.

So, nothing wrong with trying to make the pain or other unpleasantness go away. We move our legs, shift our posture, do whatever we can. Still, we accept it is there, whether it goes away or not (acceptance without acceptance). No running from the pain, even as we try to walk away from it. If it really will not go away no matter what we do, that is just our life. We just sit with it.

We also learn that, in all cases, there is a great degree of "mind over matter" to pain. Our minds magnify the pain, focus on it. Our minds can also do the opposite. It may not make the pain go away, but mind and body are one.

Remember, pain is not suffering without more ...

All that being said, we also do not do Zazen to the point that there is a real risk of damage to the body. If you overdo with the pain, nerve damage and the like is possible. Even if you need to stand up in the middle of Zazen and do Zazen that way, as walking meditation, no problem. But, to be with a reasonable bit of pain now and then is part of Practice.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Victor]

Thanks again, everyone! I'll definitely have to try shifting around a bit to see if that helps. Thank you! I almost never wear trousers that aren't loose. As for my underwear, I feel like it isn't too tight but it could be! I'll try a different pair sometime and see if that helps!

For all I know, perhaps there could be an issue with my zafu as well? I can post an image of it if that would be helpful. And I haven't been using a zabuton because a zafu is all I could afford at the time, honestly.

I'll definitely try out different things that were suggested here!

Gassho!

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[Jundo]

Don't sit too far back on the Zafu either. Try sitting on the forward 1\3. Also, if it is too hard or soft could have an effect ... the bottom line is that something is pressing the nerve.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Victor]

Don't sit too far back on the Zafu either. Try sitting on the forward 1\3. Also, if it is too hard or soft could have an effect ... the bottom line is that something is pressing the nerve.

Gassho, J

STLah

I'll have to work on it! I feel like it may be too soft in some ways, too hard in others. I'll have to eventually get one like yours when I can eventually afford it.

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[Victor]

This is the style I got and it has become rather pliable. I guess I'm already crushing the buckwheat filling down. I could maybe make a new filling layer to add to it.

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[Chishou]

Dear Victor,

If the numbness starts from the knee, you have tightness in the hip. If it starts from the hip, its a back problem.

The knee is a hinge joint, like a door, if your hips are tight and have limited external rotation, this applies an unnatural twist to the knee that will impinge the tibial nerve on the inside of the leg.

The sciatic nerve passes out of the lower back either under or through the piriformis muscle. Typically sciatic problems come with shooting pain going into the big toe.

Doing yoga/stretches specifically for hips and lower back should help to improve ranges of movement and reduce numbness.

Frequent, prolonged and repeated nerve impingement can cause nerve damage later in life, so it is not harmless.

Are you able to have someone examine your posture?

Love and bows,
Chishou
Sat


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[Jinyo]

Hi Victor,

there's lots of advice here that I'm not qualified to add to - particularly because I have to 'sit' Zazen mainly lying down or semi- recline.
Because of that I haven't been through the process of trying different positions and waiting to see if things loosen up or pain/discomfort and one's attitude towards it becomes part of the meditation process.

But what might be interesting would be to drop all expectations of sitting a certain way and simply try chair meditation. It might be useful to explore whether that feels significantly different and whether certain attachments are at play here.

Just a thought,

Gassho

Jinyo

ST