Numb Legs

[Jishin]

Hi Victor,

there's lots of advice here that I'm not qualified to add to - particularly because I have to 'sit' Zazen mainly lying down or semi- recline.
Because of that I haven't been through the process of trying different positions and waiting to see if things loosen up or pain/discomfort and one's attitude towards it becomes part of the meditation process.

But what might be interesting would be to drop all expectations of sitting a certain way and simply try chair meditation. It might be useful to explore whether that feels significantly different and whether certain attachments are at play here.

Just a thought,

Gassho

Jinyo

ST

Took me a long while to come to this conclusion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Victor]

I admit that it is possible that I could be attached to sitting on the cushion. I'm a young man of 28 with no history of major injuries or any serious conditions. I mostly just have a bit of a weight issue and flexibility issue that I need to work on.

That said, all of your advice is still important to take to heart. I do need to push myself to try towards lotus over time, but keeping a chair nearby if I need it. It is definitely important that I try not to hurt myself.

It's funny: I used to think I was sitting in half lotus, but I didn't realize that both knees are supposed to touch the floor. Once I adjusted it, I realized my ankles and knees couldn't handle it, so I switched it Burmese.

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[Shoka]

Victor,

There is already some great advice here, but I wanted to share a few thing from my perspective as a fat yogi who can't sit full or half lotus. For this conversation I will say that I am a certified yoga teacher, although I don't teach anymore.

One question I didn't see asked that I'm curious about is, is it new that you are going numb at the 20 min mark? Or is it new that you are sitting for 20 mins? I ask because it will lead to different things to think about.

First if it is the case that this is a new development, for example you had been comfortably sitting for 20 mins without this problem and now you are getting it. Then there are a few things to consider. I used to be able to sit comfortably for 30 minutes in burmense without going numb or needing to adjust. But now, I can barely make 10 mins without needing to adjust. The change is because I commute much more than I used (over 2 hours a day... ugh). So the use on my driving leg and that hip have more than doubled suddenly. It is enough that stretching can't keep up with the change, and now whichever leg is in front while sitting goes numb between 10-15 mins. This is the most recent change to my sitting probably over the past 6 months.

A few years ago sitting became uncomfortable, and I realized that after a year of sitting on the husk filled cushion it had broken down. I ordered some buckwheat husk and stuffed it fuller. Solved the problem. I'm overweight so it isn't shocking that I would wear out a cushion after sitting it on it daily for a year. I'm sure everyone eventually wears their cushion out.

So I would suggest if it is something that has come on recently look for what has maybe changed.

If it is the second that sitting for 20 mins is new or has never been comfortable, then I would start adjusting things (one thing at a time). I swear right now everyday when I sit something feels different. My zafu doesn't get moved around, but I'll sit down and it will feel completely different than the day before. So I take a few moments to make sure that I have adjusted myself as best I can. If you watch the zazenkais you can see Jundo shifting back and forth when he first sits. This movement can help to get the sit bones on the cushion and make sure you feel balanced.

I'm much slower getting settled, I shift back and forth a bit, then fold my legs gently, wiggle my toes, wiggle around a little to make sure nothing feels tight at the start. If something does feel tight then I support it. For example since my driving hip is super tight right now that leg often gets a small towel folded under the knee to support the hip and give it a gentler fall to the floor.

It takes time and the stinky thing is that it will continue to change... because you know everyday is a new day and the body is a little different. Keep playing with it if you want. Or as Jinyo notes above, perhaps practice with sitting in a chair and let go of sitting on the cushion for a while.

Good luck!

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday (on a stack of drywall at the jobsite)

[Seibu]

Hi Victor,


I was struggling with the same issue and I still do but to a lesser extent. The height of the zafu also matters. My old zafu, a traditional one, is about 8 centimeters or 3.14 inches and caused what you described in your first post. One day I tried my sensei's zafu which is 14 centimeters or 5.5 inches and it allowed me to sit longer in Burmese position. I got one myself and it has been much more comfortable, but not too comfortable because I still have to switch legs after 15-20 minutes most of the times. Gradually I'm trying to increase hip flexibility so I'll be able to sit on the lower zafu one day again. The new cushion isn't a zafu in the traditional sense of the word but has rounded edges and is known as a round meditation cushion. Remove or add some of the buckwheat each time you sit until you find that sweet spot that allows you to sit a bit more comfortably.

Gassho,
Jack
Sattoday

[Tai Do]

Hi Victor,
I have a similar problem that I want to bring here. I’ve already talked a little with Jundo some months ago and his advices were very helpful. Perhaps I can also find some help like you, and perhaps me bringing it here can help you not to have them in the future.
I’m also over weighted and recently the combination of my weight with my general bad posture and 9 hours per week driving brought me a hernia in the spine. I used to sit in Burmese for some years (not everyday, though). But now my back hernia hurt a lot when I sit in Burmese. I think it’s because of my weight and bad posture that make me force the back muscles in order to maintain the posture without collapsing and the combination of this and the hernia make it very uncomfortable.
I’d like to say that I can ignore this pain like many others, mainly because it is nothing compared to what other people feel and is really a minor problem. But I keep switching positions while sitting and I can’t let go of body and mind.
I tried to switch to chair zazen, but it only increased the pain. I think it’s because the lack of balance and the difficulty to keep the spine straight. So, Burmese and chair are very similar to me. I find both very unstable and painful for the back.
So, I switched to full lotus and the pain in the back almost disappeared while sitting (tough not while driving or sitting in a chair in front of the computer). I think it is because of the pressure in the legs that forces the spine to realign and relieves the pressure in the hernia and the muscles around it. Or perhaps it’s only my mind that creates the illusion of less pain and it is all a placebo effect. But it works great.
Half and quarter lotus is better than Burmese to my back, but not so as full lotus.
Seiza is also an excellent position for my back that I tried. But I don’t have a seiza bench (too expensive, but perhaps worth the money) and my zafu is too soft to maintain me. So I sit Japanese style directly in the zabuton.
The problem is that I can’t maintain lotus for more than 20 or 25 minutes (sometimes I manage 30 minutes, but it is rare), and seiza for even less (10 to 15 minutes maximum), so I end the last minutes in Burmese as the pain in the back will slowly grow.
But with time my knees started to hurt not only during zazen, but during the day as well.
This Monday I decided to sit in Burmese the whole week, which I did. Today (Saturday) my knees don’t hurt anymore, but my back is in more pain than usually.
So I’ll probably return to lotus (half or full) and will have to find some good stretches for my knee and legs.
Talking to Jundo and now reading this thread, I realized that part of the problem is my zafu. It has almost ten years and is not hugely small, but it’s not tall nor firm enough. My mother-in-law sews professionally (my zabuton was made for her, by the way). She offered to make one for me larger and firmer than mine. But buckwheat filling is difficult to find, so she uses a harder filling.
I thank everyone that gave Victor this great suggestions and I will make use of them to see if my problem can also be solved.

And if I can make a suggestion to you, Victor if the numbness is persistent as my back pain and if it doesn’t go away after sitting, I will suggest that you find some professional help. I went to an orthopedist and am now doing physiotherapy and Pilates. It has helped me a lot with the pain. If your leg is getting numb of the cushion too, perhaps this can help you as well.
Thank you all and good practice, Victor.
Gassho,
Mateus
Sat/LAH

[Victor]

Victor,

There is already some great advice here, but I wanted to share a few thing from my perspective as a fat yogi who can't sit full or half lotus. For this conversation I will say that I am a certified yoga teacher, although I don't teach anymore.

One question I didn't see asked that I'm curious about is, is it new that you are going numb at the 20 min mark? Or is it new that you are sitting for 20 mins? I ask because it will lead to different things to think about.

First if it is the case that this is a new development, for example you had been comfortably sitting for 20 mins without this problem and now you are getting it. Then there are a few things to consider. I used to be able to sit comfortably for 30 minutes in burmense without going numb or needing to adjust. But now, I can barely make 10 mins without needing to adjust. The change is because I commute much more than I used (over 2 hours a day... ugh). So the use on my driving leg and that hip have more than doubled suddenly. It is enough that stretching can't keep up with the change, and now whichever leg is in front while sitting goes numb between 10-15 mins. This is the most recent change to my sitting probably over the past 6 months.

A few years ago sitting became uncomfortable, and I realized that after a year of sitting on the husk filled cushion it had broken down. I ordered some buckwheat husk and stuffed it fuller. Solved the problem. I'm overweight so it isn't shocking that I would wear out a cushion after sitting it on it daily for a year. I'm sure everyone eventually wears their cushion out.

So I would suggest if it is something that has come on recently look for what has maybe changed.

If it is the second that sitting for 20 mins is new or has never been comfortable, then I would start adjusting things (one thing at a time). I swear right now everyday when I sit something feels different. My zafu doesn't get moved around, but I'll sit down and it will feel completely different than the day before. So I take a few moments to make sure that I have adjusted myself as best I can. If you watch the zazenkais you can see Jundo shifting back and forth when he first sits. This movement can help to get the sit bones on the cushion and make sure you feel balanced.

I'm much slower getting settled, I shift back and forth a bit, then fold my legs gently, wiggle my toes, wiggle around a little to make sure nothing feels tight at the start. If something does feel tight then I support it. For example since my driving hip is super tight right now that leg often gets a small towel folded under the knee to support the hip and give it a gentler fall to the floor.

It takes time and the stinky thing is that it will continue to change... because you know everyday is a new day and the body is a little different. Keep playing with it if you want. Or as Jinyo notes above, perhaps practice with sitting in a chair and let go of sitting on the cushion for a while.

Good luck!

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday (on a stack of drywall at the jobsite)

Well, sitting for 20 minutes is relatively new. About 2-3 months. I strive for daily, sometimes things come up. I feel like the numbness wasn't as intense until after my first time sitting a 30 minute stretch during zazenkai. Now 20 does it.

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[Victor]

Hi Victor,


I was struggling with the same issue and I still do but to a lesser extent. The height of the zafu also matters. My old zafu, a traditional one, is about 8 centimeters or 3.14 inches and caused what you described in your first post. One day I tried my sensei's zafu which is 14 centimeters or 5.5 inches and it allowed me to sit longer in Burmese position. I got one myself and it has been much more comfortable, but not too comfortable because I still have to switch legs after 15-20 minutes most of the times. Gradually I'm trying to increase hip flexibility so I'll be able to sit on the lower zafu one day again. The new cushion isn't a zafu in the traditional sense of the word but has rounded edges and is known as a round meditation cushion. Remove or add some of the buckwheat each time you sit until you find that sweet spot that allows you to sit a bit more comfortably.

Gassho,
Jack
Sattoday

Thanks so much! I'll try raising it with a cushion or two first. After that, I'll try buying more buckwheat hulls so I can try different degrees of fullness.

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[Victor]

Hi Victor,
I have a similar problem that I want to bring here. I’ve already talked a little with Juno some months ago and his advices were very helpful. Perhaps I can also find some help like you, and perhaps me bringing it here can help you not to have them in the future.
I’m also over weighted and recently the combination of my weight with my general bad posture and 9 hours per week driving brought me a hernia in the spine. I used to sit in Burmese for some years (not everyday, though). But now my back hernia hurt a lot when I sit in Burmese. I think it’s because of my weight and bad posture that make me force the back muscles in order to maintain the posture without collapsing and the combination of this and the hernia make it very uncomfortable.
I’d like to say that I can ignore this pain like many others, mainly because it is nothing compared to what other people feel and is really a minor problem. But I keep switching positions while sitting and I can’t let go of body and mind.
I tried to switch to chair zazen, but it only increased the pain. I think it’s because the lack of balance and the difficulty to keep the spine straight. So, Burmese and chair are very similar to me. I find both very unstable and painful for the back.
So, I switched to full lotus and the pain in the back almost disappeared while sitting (tough not while driving or sitting in a chair in front of the computer). I think it is because of the pressure in the legs that forces the spine to realign and relieves the pressure in the hernia and the muscles around it. Or perhaps it’s only my mind that creates the illusion of less pain and it is all a placebo effect. But it works great.
Half and quarter lotus is better than Burmese to my back, but not so as full lotus.
Seiza is also an excellent position for my back that I tried. But I don’t have a seiza bench (too expensive, but perhaps worth the money) and my zafu is too soft to maintain me. So I sit Japanese style directly in the zabuton.
The problem is that I can’t maintain lotus for more than 20 or 25 minutes (sometimes I manage 30 minutes, but it is rare), and seiza for even less (10 to 15 minutes maximum), so I end the last minutes in Burmese as the pain in the back will slowly grow.
But with time my knees started to hurt not only during zazen, but during the day as well.
This Monday I decided to sit in Burmese the whole week, which I did. Today (Saturday) my knees don’t hurt anymore, but my back is in more pain than usually.
So I’ll probably return to lotus (half or full) and will have to find some good stretches for my knee and legs.
Talking to Jundo and now reading this thread, I realized that part of the problem is my zafu. It has almost ten years and is not hugely small, but it’s not tall nor firm enough. My mother-in-law sews professionally (my zabuton was made for her, by the way). She offered to make one for me larger and firmer than mine. But buckwheat filling is difficult to find, so she uses a harder filling.
I thank everyone that gave Victor this great suggestions and I will make use of them to see if my problem can also be solved.

And if I can make a suggestion to you, Victor if the numbness is persistent as my back pain and if it doesn’t go away after sitting, I will suggest that you find some professional help. I went to an orthopedist and am now doing physiotherapy and Pilates. It has helped me a lot with the pain. If your leg is getting numb of the cushion too, perhaps this can help you as well.
Thank you all and good practice, Victor.
Gassho,
Mateus
Sat/LAH

I'm glad you were able to find some good advice here and with Jundo! I really hope it helps! I'll have to try filling my zafu more full as well and see if it helps

Unfortunately my knees won't even go into any lotus postures. Either way, stretching is definitely a need!

Thanks so much, Mateus!

Good practice to you as well and gassho!

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[Tai Do]

Thank you, Victor. Let’s practice together.

Mateus
Sat/LAH

[Victor]

Absolutely, brother! And thank you! Gassho!

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[Timchenko_Oleg]

Hi Victor,
I have a similar problem that I want to bring here. I’ve already talked a little with Jundo some months ago and his advices were very helpful. Perhaps I can also find some help like you, and perhaps me bringing it here can help you not to have them in the future.
I’m also over weighted and recently the combination of my weight with my general bad posture and 9 hours per week driving brought me a hernia in the spine. I used to sit in Burmese for some years (not everyday, though). But now my back hernia hurt a lot when I sit in Burmese. I think it’s because of my weight and bad posture that make me force the back muscles in order to maintain the posture without collapsing and the combination of this and the hernia make it very uncomfortable.
I’d like to say that I can ignore this pain like many others, mainly because it is nothing compared to what other people feel and is really a minor problem. But I keep switching positions while sitting and I can’t let go of body and mind.
I tried to switch to chair zazen, but it only increased the pain. I think it’s because the lack of balance and the difficulty to keep the spine straight. So, Burmese and chair are very similar to me. I find both very unstable and painful for the back.
So, I switched to full lotus and the pain in the back almost disappeared while sitting (tough not while driving or sitting in a chair in front of the computer). I think it is because of the pressure in the legs that forces the spine to realign and relieves the pressure in the hernia and the muscles around it. Or perhaps it’s only my mind that creates the illusion of less pain and it is all a placebo effect. But it works great.
Half and quarter lotus is better than Burmese to my back, but not so as full lotus.
Seiza is also an excellent position for my back that I tried. But I don’t have a seiza bench (too expensive, but perhaps worth the money) and my zafu is too soft to maintain me. So I sit Japanese style directly in the zabuton.
The problem is that I can’t maintain lotus for more than 20 or 25 minutes (sometimes I manage 30 minutes, but it is rare), and seiza for even less (10 to 15 minutes maximum), so I end the last minutes in Burmese as the pain in the back will slowly grow.
But with time my knees started to hurt not only during zazen, but during the day as well.
This Monday I decided to sit in Burmese the whole week, which I did. Today (Saturday) my knees don’t hurt anymore, but my back is in more pain than usually.
So I’ll probably return to lotus (half or full) and will have to find some good stretches for my knee and legs.
Talking to Jundo and now reading this thread, I realized that part of the problem is my zafu. It has almost ten years and is not hugely small, but it’s not tall nor firm enough. My mother-in-law sews professionally (my zabuton was made for her, by the way). She offered to make one for me larger and firmer than mine. But buckwheat filling is difficult to find, so she uses a harder filling.
I thank everyone that gave Victor this great suggestions and I will make use of them to see if my problem can also be solved.

And if I can make a suggestion to you, Victor if the numbness is persistent as my back pain and if it doesn’t go away after sitting, I will suggest that you find some professional help. I went to an orthopedist and am now doing physiotherapy and Pilates. It has helped me a lot with the pain. If your leg is getting numb of the cushion too, perhaps this can help you as well.
Thank you all and good practice, Victor.
Gassho,
Mateus
Sat/LAH

I have a zafu 25 cm tall with buckwheat husks, my height is 182 cm, weight 79 kg and everything is fine[emoji106]

Gassho,
Oleg
Sat today, Lend a Hand

[Victor]

Sounds like I definitely need a taller, firmer zafu!

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[Timchenko_Oleg]

Sounds like I definitely need a taller, firmer zafu!

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I do not know [emoji6]

Gassho,
Oleg
Sat today, Lend a Hand

[Victor]

Haha!

Gassho, my friend!

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[Victor]

I'm also around 182 cm and 100 kg

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