Supreme mantra?

[Shinshou]

I'm wondering about the end of the Heart Sutra, particularly the miraculous, bright, supreme, incomparable mantra that relieves suffering and is true, not false: Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha. That's some pretty strong language to indicate there's something quite valuable in that mantra. Yet I've never heard it chanted by itself, never heard of its being repeated as a mantra in the Hindu type of way, to my knowledge it's not used as a koan; I've never heard it used in any other way except at the end of the Heart Sutra, which tells us how miraculous it is. In fact, as a Hindu I was given this apparently Buddhist mantra to chant, but as a Buddhist, it's not used! Even if it's just a feeble linguistic attempt to describe what the state of prajna paramita is, I'm surprised it's not used in some way, other than attached to the Heart Sutra. Has anyone heard of any use of this supreme, incomparable, completely true mantra, and if not, why? We have meal chants, opening the sutras chants...but I've never heard of chanting the "supreme" mantra.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

[Jishin]

Hi,

My supreme mantra is Diet Coke, Diet Coke, Diet Coke. It works great. Whenever in distress I chant it. Sometimes I also chant five o’clock, five o’clock, five o’clock on a tough day and this mantra also works great on some days.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

I'm wondering about the end of the Heart Sutra, particularly the miraculous, bright, supreme, incomparable mantra that relieves suffering and is true, not false: Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha. That's some pretty strong language to indicate there's something quite valuable in that mantra. Yet I've never heard it chanted by itself, never heard of its being repeated as a mantra in the Hindu type of way, to my knowledge it's not used as a koan; I've never heard it used in any other way except at the end of the Heart Sutra, which tells us how miraculous it is. In fact, as a Hindu I was given this apparently Buddhist mantra to chant, but as a Buddhist, it's not used! Even if it's just a feeble linguistic attempt to describe what the state of prajna paramita is, I'm surprised it's not used in some way, other than attached to the Heart Sutra. Has anyone heard of any use of this supreme, incomparable, completely true mantra, and if not, why? We have meal chants, opening the sutras chants...but I've never heard of chanting the "supreme" mantra.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

Hi Shinshou,

There are Mantra and Dharani used in traditional Soto Zen and throughout Buddhism, but I tend to not do so here as I believe that they have been traditionally used as "abracadabra" magic spells wishing for this worldly (wealth, health and preventing earthquakes) and other worldly payoffs. If you want, you can read more about my skepticism on such practices here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15129-Daily-Prayer-Practice&p=194904&viewfull=1#post194904

Some people try to say that Mantra had other rolls, such as just "mnemonic" devices as memory tags for longer doctrines, but I don't really think so. Mostly, they were "presto chango" spells recited to keep evil spirits and the doctor away.

In fact, through the centuries, the Heart Sutra itself (in its entirety, as well as the "Mantra" at the end) has been used also as a protective talisman or magical formula by people who did not understanding the content beyond the "power" said to be there. It is like people who don't read the Lotus Sutra or the Bible or Koran, and just carry a copy for protection.

However, if one reads the Heart Sutra itself, it clearly states that ...

There/fore/ know/ that/ Praj/na/ Pa/ra/mi/ta/

Is/ the/ sac/red/ man/tra/, the/ lu/min/ous/ man/tra/,

the/ sup/reme/ man/tra/, the/ in/com/pa/ra/ble/ man/tra/

by/ which/ all/ suf/fe/ring/ is/ clear/.

...

There/fore/ set/ forth/ the/ Praj/na/ Pa/ra/mi/ta/ man/tra/.

Set/ forth/ this/ man/tra/ and/ pro/claim/:*

(1x)
Gate! Gate! (Already Gone, Gone)
Paragate! (Already Gone Beyond)
Parasamgate! (Already Fully Beyond)
Bodhi! Svaha! * (Awakening, Rejoice)

故知般 若波羅蜜多。是大神咒。是大明咒。是
無上咒。是無等等咒。能除一切苦。真
實不虛。故說般若波羅蜜多咒。即說
咒曰。揭諦揭諦。波羅揭諦。波羅僧
揭諦。菩提薩婆訶。

In other words ... PRAJNA PARAMITA (the Perfection of Wisdom, i.e., Emptiness) is the mantra, the saving Truth, not the words at the end which just proclaim the outcome of Wisdom. ... Simple as that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

PS -

The topic of our recitation of "Metta" (Loving Kindness) came up today, and some might wonder about that.

RECOMMENDED DAILY Metta PRACTICE

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6020-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Metta-PRACTICE

Here is how I hold that in my heart when reciting ...

... It need not be considered a "prayer" to some force outside us (we will leave that to silence), and can be thought of as simply our aspiration for a better world for all living beings. Truly, 'inside' and 'outside' are not two, and one can effect and greatly change the other.

One can ask if there really is a power to this practice to work change. I will say yes. Our hateful thoughts, words and acts can have real impact on ourself and on the people around us, creating pain and problems for people. Such behavior adds some drops of poison and ugliness into the world. So, in equal fashion, our kind thoughts, words and acts can have real impact, direct and indirect, on ourself and those around us and impacted by our behavior. In this day and age of modern communications, actions and words far across the world can have effects, great and small, on all of us. One does not need to believe in some mysterious power to Metta in order to understand its positive effects. If I wish my friend or loved one ill or well, it will have great potential to touch them.

In other words, feel "You S.O.B., drop dead" in your heart about somebody, even if it is just a thought or words without actions, has a real effect as anger and pain ... maybe on the person about whom you say it or dash it off in an angry email or phone call, but certainly to poison the person who says it even if the just feel it silently inside their own heart and mind and only thinks it.

Likewise, to hope for someone's peace, health and freedom from suffering instead.

Simple as that.

[Mitka]

Interesting question. I've made some use of mantras before. I've come across the "prosperity dharma" aspect of mantra chanting before (do this and you will get rich or get that job you always wanted). However, for me, mantra chanting is just a type of concentration meditation like vipassana. Very different from shikantaza, but if your mind is agitated, someone familiar with mantra mediation might find it useful to spend a minute or two on "Om Mani Padme Hum" or "Buddham/Dharmam/Sangham Sharanam Gacchami (The Three Treasures in Sanskrit)" to calm it down before going back to shikantaza. I do this sometimes, I only do it as a form of concentration meditation, not to get anything from it. I'm just a regular guy though, just telling you what I find useful. I don't think mixing mantras with shikantaza is very common in the practice, it's just something I personally stumbled on and use from time to time.

Just my two cents. Hadn't thought about chanting the "Gate, Gate" mantra before. It is beautiful, maybe I will give that a try sometime.

Gassho,
Mitka
SAT

[Shinshou]

Hi Shinshou,

There are Mantra and Dharani used in traditional Soto Zen and throughout Buddhism, but I tend to not do so here as I believe that they have been traditionally used as "abracadabra" magic spells wishing for this worldly (wealth, health and preventing earthquakes) and other worldly payoffs. If you want, you can read more about my skepticism on such practices here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15129-Daily-Prayer-Practice&p=194904&viewfull=1#post194904

Some people try to say that Mantra had other rolls, such as just "mnemonic" devices as memory tags for longer doctrines, but I don't really think so. Mostly, they were "presto chango" spells recited to keep evil spirits and the doctor away.

In fact, through the centuries, the Heart Sutra itself (in its entirety, as well as the "Mantra" at the end) has been used also as a protective talisman or magical formula by people who did not understanding the content beyond the "power" said to be there. It is like people who don't read the Lotus Sutra or the Bible or Koran, and just carry a copy for protection.

However, if one reads the Heart Sutra itself, it clearly states that ...



In other words ... PRAJNA PARAMITA (the Perfection of Wisdom, i.e., Emptiness) is the mantra, the saving Truth, not the words at the end which just proclaim the outcome of Wisdom. ... Simple as that.

Gassho, J

STLah

That’s interesting, the text I’m working with translates it differently. “Therefore
we proclaim the prajna paramita mantra, the mantra that
says: "Gate Gate ● Paragate Parasamgate ● Bodhi Svaha,” indicating the mantra is gate, gate, not the state of prajna paramita. I certainly like your version better, as it indicates the mantra is the state.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat today


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[Shinshou]

Hi,

My supreme mantra is Diet Coke, Diet Coke, Diet Coke. It works great. Whenever in distress I chant it. Sometimes I also chant five o’clock, five o’clock, five o’clock on a tough day and this mantra also works great on some days.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

When I worked inpatient cardiology, my mantra was for years “every minute is a minute closer [to quitting time].” It was comforting knowing that time was always running toward clocking out, never running away from it.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat today


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[Jakuden]

Supreme mantra?

Thanks for the question Shinshou and the reminder discussion, Jundo! I actually love the mantra and I do chant it... thinking “already gone beyond” has an infinite and peaceful depth that lends so much equanimity for me. No need to chant about five o’clock, it’s already five o’clock!

At ZMM they used to chant it together as a Sangha before work practice, perhaps to remember it during whatever difficult situations might arise while working. They have replaced it with something a little longer though.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jishin]

Hi,

Mantras do this:

Thought substitution and thought blocking. There is nothing magic about them. Ultimately they have the butterfly effect and they benefit all. Anything else is superstition. The mantra “Diet Coke” works just as well as the Heart Sutra Mantra. Thought blocking and it replaces it with a positive thought. I personally like Diet Coke more than the Heart Sutra when thirsty.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

That’s interesting, the text I’m working with translates it differently. “Therefore
we proclaim the prajna paramita mantra, the mantra that
says: "Gate Gate ● Paragate Parasamgate ● Bodhi Svaha,” indicating the mantra is gate, gate, not the state of prajna paramita. I certainly like your version better, as it indicates the mantra is the state.

The Chinese is ambiguous, and can be taken either way.

The Soto shu version says, for example:

Therefore, know the prajna paramita as
the great miraculous mantra, the great bright mantra,
the supreme mantra, the incomparable mantra, which
removes all suffering and is true, not false. Therefore
we proclaim the prajna paramita mantra, the mantra that
says： "Gate Gate ● Paragate Parasamgate ● Bodhi
Svaha.”

However, Bernie Glassman and many of the White Plum teachers (my mentor is White Plum, and that is where ours comes from) use a version basically the same as ours ...

Therefore know that Prajna Paramita is
The holy mantra, the luminous mantra
The supreme mantra, the incomparable mantra
By which all suffering is cleared. This is no other than truth.
Therefore set forth the Prajna Paramita mantra,
Set forth this mantra and proclaim:
Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha!

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=-orrbnigUPkC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=set+forth+this+mantra+and+proclaim+gate&source=bl&ots=l654WJZzGw&sig=ACfU3U3ET4uk-qlMllI1ti162Bk5SRGm5g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjulfDJ7sXhAhVcwIsBHfgvBPMQ6AEwAXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=set%20forth%20this%20mantra%20and%20proclaim%20gate&f=false

Remember that these are all translations into English from the original Chinese (it was most likely created in China, although inspired by some longer Sutras from india), So, all the translations could be right, as the Chinese is open to interpretation.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Heiso]

Jundo - I've been chanting it for years but had never considered the fact that 'Prajna Paramita' was the actual mantra!

Thanks for pointing that out.

Gassho,

Neil

ST/LaH

[Kokuu]

Hi Shinshou

I would agree with the position that mantras only have as much magic and significance as we give them. However, studies have shown that people who are given a 'spiritual' word, phrase or object to meditate on experience a deeper practice than those who are given something more mundane. It is as if the human brain is hardwired for some kind of religiosity.

My own experience is that reciting mantras cuts through what some Buddhist teachers have called 'unconscious chatter' (basically the kind of random thoughts that run around own brains). I use them to deal with the worse parts of illness. they cushion against pain. Similarly to the studies, I find that mantras from the Buddhist tradition work better for me than any random word or phrase.

In Tibetan Buddhism, the prajnaparamita mantra is recited if there is a need to dispose of dharma books or objects. They are generally destroyed by fire or in some other way and the mantra is used to convey their inherent emptiness and return to their costituent parts.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Tai Do]

Hi Shinshou

I would agree with the position that mantras only have as much magic and significance as we give them. However, studies have shown that people who are given a 'spiritual' word, phrase or object to meditate on experience a deeper practice than those who are given something more mundane. It is as if the human brain is hardwired for some kind of religiosity.

My own experience is that reciting mantras cuts through what some Buddhist teachers have called 'unconscious chatter' (basically the kind of random thoughts that run around own brains). I use them to deal with the worse parts of illness. they cushion against pain. Similarly to the studies, I find that mantras from the Buddhist tradition work better for me than any random word or phrase.

I use the nembutsu for exactly the same purpose: to stop my monkey mind and reconnect with the reality right here and now. Especially when I’m working or cleaning the house.
Glad to know I’m not that weird. Thank you, Kokuu.
Gassho ,
Mateu
Sat/LAH

[Kokuu]

I use the nembutsu for exactly the same purpose: to stop my monkey mind and reconnect with the reality right here and now. Especially when I’m working or cleaning the house.
Glad to know I’m not that weird.

Well, we might both be!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Hi Shinshou

I would agree with the position that mantras only have as much magic and significance as we give them. However, studies have shown that people who are given a 'spiritual' word, phrase or object to meditate on experience a deeper practice than those who are given something more mundane. It is as if the human brain is hardwired for some kind of religiosity.

My own experience is that reciting mantras cuts through what some Buddhist teachers have called 'unconscious chatter' (basically the kind of random thoughts that run around own brains). I use them to deal with the worse parts of illness. they cushion against pain. Similarly to the studies, I find that mantras from the Buddhist tradition work better for me than any random word or phrase.

In Tibetan Buddhism, the prajnaparamita mantra is recited if there is a need to dispose of dharma books or objects. They are generally destroyed by fire or in some other way and the mantra is used to convey their inherent emptiness and return to their costituent parts.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I very much agree with this, even if it is just psychological and not "magic" (maybe they are not different?)

Lighting an incense stick and candle on an Altar with a statue of Buddha does something to "re-Mind" the heart that this is a special place and moment which is different from turning on a flashlight in front of a picture of movie star Tom Hanks or a pick-up truck. Bowing 3x is not being sick in bed. Likewise, for some people, putting on a robe helps them get in the "right state of mind" more than jeans and a t-shirt, and a Gregorian Chant or Buddhist Chant is not listening to 80's pop music like our monk friend, Kakunen ..

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16872-Break-out

There are studies on effects of sound to the heart and mind. Here is one, although I am no expert ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5223166/

That said, in fact ... EVERY MOMENT IS SACRED! There is absolutely no difference between candle and incense stick in front of an Altar and a flashlight in a pick-up truck drinking a coke in front of Tom Hanks,or bowing and being sick in bed. Understand? The "Gate Gate ... " and the "Diet Coke, Diet Coke ... " are each magical.

However, human beings forget this fact, thus we sit Zazen and maybe chant the Heart Sutra. This helps us remember. After Zazen and chanting, we get up and ride in our truck while drinking a coke. or are sick in bed ... also Zazen and Sacred. Understand? Not the slightest gap.

As Kakunen says, 80's pop music is a Gregorian Chant is the Nembutsu is the Heart Sutra!

Gassho, J

STLAH

PS - Most sacred chant is not "Diet Coke, Diet Coke ... " but "Pepsi Pepsi Pepsi" (you have to be American of a certain age to get the joke ) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIhCD7T6fg