Versions of Shobogenzo and nine bows

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40711

    #16
    Originally posted by Jundo
    I looked at these two versions of Gakudo Yojin shu today, and it was interesting.

    I would say that the version by Tanahashi, from Moon is a Dewdrop, is the most readable, and conveys a bit of Dogen's sense of the poetry in language. The Nishiijima-Cross version (I think everyone knows that Nishijima Roshi is my Teacher) is more literal in tracking the grammar. However, it makes it a bit clunkier to read, and also Nishijima Roshi had some phrases he liked to use that are a bit personal to him (e.g., "will to the Truth" while Tanahashi says "the thought of enlightenment.") On the other hand, Tanahashi is sometimes paraphrases a bit to keep it smooth, and papers over some ambiguities in the original, so is not quite as literal as Nishijima. This is true too for the respective Nishijima-Cross and Tanahashi versions of Shobogenzo.

    Overall, I would recommend the Tanahashi version for ease of reading, although it is always good to read 2 or 3 versions side-by-side to triangulate what the original might actually have said. HOWEVER, the Tanahashi version posted is only the first half, and the second half (6 thru 10) seems to be missing!

    So, here is a better link to the Tanahashi version that is complete, complements of Village Zendo ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Hi Guys,

    I went back to re-read Gakudo Yojinshu, as several folks had expressed an interest. I am re-reading all of Dogen's writings these days, so it fits right in. A few comments that may help with it:

    - I do endorse the Tanahashi version as the most readable, with a sense of Dogen's style of poetic expression.

    - In understanding the early sub-sections especially, I think it very important to keep in mind that Dogen's emphasis on arousing "the thought of enlightenment" means very clearly (Dogen makes says this many different ways throughout the essay) that the search is the arrival in Dogen's vision of ongoing "practice-enlightenment." Expressions like Nishijima's "Will to the Truth" sound like an effort to get to a goal, but it is actually more that the effort in practice is also the goal. When you understand that point, a lot of the essay falls into place and makes sense. It is a little hard to convey what Dogen means, but imagine a walk or hike up a mountain, diligently forward and forward, in which each step by step is itself its own total arrival and the whole mountain. It is not just the destination, but the whole trip is the destination. Thus he says things such as that practice is enlightenment even before one might understand how or feel the effects.

    - He emphasizes in many places throughout the essay that one should not practice with a gaining idea, and just practice for the sake of practice. However, one had best be diligent about it, not lazy. This is pushing ahead up the mountain, not being lazy or giving up, but there is really no place to get to because every step of the hike is the mountain realized in the walking.

    - Dogen had very little money to fund his struggling temple in those days, and was certainly trying to gather some students (this is a very early writing when Dogen first became an independent teacher). This is why he is so intense in emphasizing finding a good teacher, and criticized a lot of the other schools of Buddhism in Japan in those days as too academic or politically/socially power hungry (they were).

    - I noticed several passages very open to lay practice and women's enlightenment (very open minded for the 13th century). He also says several places that one must bust their butt for this practice but, later, makes it clear that he does not mean physical austerities or just punishing yourself. So, what he seems to be saying is that one should practice diligently and sincerely, but with a mind that makes the hard into something easy, and the diligence into a peaceful heart. In other words, the struggle is to stick with it, but in a way that one's body and mind are at ease, and the struggle is not a struggle.

    I hope these comments help with understanding some of this piece. Let me know if anyone has other more specific questions.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-19-2019, 11:03 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Shinshi
      Senior Priest-in-Training
      • Jul 2010
      • 3717

      #17
      Thank you Jundo, that is really helpful.

      Gassho, Shinshi

      SaT-LaH
      空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi

      For Zen students a weed is a treasure. With this attitude, whatever you do, life becomes an art.
      ​— Shunryu Suzuki

      E84I - JAJ

      Comment

      • Jakuden
        Member
        • Jun 2015
        • 6141

        #18
        Originally posted by Jundo
        Hi Guys,

        I went back to re-read Gakudo Yojinshu, as several folks had expressed an interest. I am re-reading all of Dogen's writings these days, so it fits right in. A few comments that may help with it:

        - I do endorse the Tanahashi version as the most readable, with a sense of Dogen's style of poetic expression.

        - In understanding the early sub-sections especially, I think it very important to keep in mind that Dogen's emphasis on arousing "the thought of enlightenment" means very clearly (Dogen makes says this many different ways throughout the essay) that the search is the arrival in Dogen's vision of ongoing "practice-enlightenment." Expressions like Nishijima's "Will to the Truth" sound like an effort to get to a goal, but it is actually more that the effort in practice is also the goal. When you understand that point, a lot of the essay falls into place and makes sense. It is a little hard to convey what Dogen means, but imagine a walk or hike up a mountain, diligently forward and forward, in which each step by step is itself its own total arrival and the whole mountain. It is not just the destination, but the whole trip is the destination. Thus he says things such as that practice is enlightenment even before one might understand how or feel the effects.

        - He emphasizes in many places throughout the essay that one should not practice with a gaining idea, and just practice for the sake of practice. However, one had best be diligent about it, not lazy. This is pushing ahead up the mountain, not being lazy or giving up, but there is really no place to get to because every step of the hike is the mountain realized in the walking.

        - Dogen had very little money to fund his struggling temple in those days, and was certainly trying to gather some students (this is a very early writing when Dogen first became an independent teacher). This is why he is so intense in emphasizing finding a good teacher, and criticized a lot of the other schools of Buddhism in Japan in those days as too academic or politically/socially power hungry (they were).

        - I noticed several passages very open to lay practice and women's enlightenment (very open minded for the 13th century). He also says several places that one must bust their butt for this practice but, later, makes it clear that he does not mean physical austerities or just punishing yourself. So, what he seems to be saying is that one should practice diligently and sincerely, but with a mind that makes the hard into something easy, and the diligence into a peaceful heart. In other words, the struggle is to stick with it, but in a way that one's body and mind are at ease, and the struggle is not a struggle.

        I hope these comments help with understanding some of this piece. Let me know if anyone has other more specific questions.

        Gassho, J

        STLah
        Thank you Jundo. This reading is very grounding, and it's nice to have the context of an earnest Dogen doing his best to help students who need him find the Way. We may not practice with a goal, but we can still practice with passion, no?

        Gassho,
        Jakuden
        SatToday/LAH

        Comment

        • Sekiyuu
          Member
          • Apr 2018
          • 201

          #19
          I feel the urge to recommend Brad Warner's paraphrasings of Shobogenzo as a reading companion: "Don't Be a Jerk" and "It Came From Beyond Zen". The paraphrasing is intentionally very loose (The Mountain And Waters Sutra is rephrased the "Beer and Doritos Sutra"), but he also provides what are effectively very extensive footnotes and context which help with reading the source material. He also makes statements comparing the translations frequently, and sometimes picks a particular translation for a particular chapter (fascicle) as his favourite and explains why (he usually goes with Nishijima / Cross).

          He even wrote an entire chapter about it ("You Can't Say 'I Miss You' In Japanese"), and now that I'm re-reading it, I find this passage very pertinent:
          In fact, most Japanese people find Dōgen’s prose almost as confounding as we do. Pretty much the only significant difference is they don’t have to decode the Chinese and Japanese characters it’s written in. As Nishijima Roshi said, what first fascinated him about Shōbōgenzō was that it was a book that was written in his own language but that he could not understand at all. Most Japanese people interested in Shōbōgenzō turn to the various modern Japanese translations now available and rarely attempt to read the original.
          Also, when it comes to translations, remember...
          “The original is unfaithful to the translation.”
          ― Jorge Luis Borges
          Gassho,
          Kenny
          Sat Today

          Comment

          • Shoki
            Member
            • Apr 2015
            • 580

            #20
            To clarify something about the versions of Shobogenzo; Since the Tanahashi version seems to be the consensus preferred version, is it only available in the hardcover and the on-line version? I don't see a less expensive paperback version out there. Is the Tanashashi translation; "Treasure of the True Dharma Eye, Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo" at $67. the complete works? Once obtained is the full Shobogenzo contained therein? Another volume is not needed to complete the works, correct?

            Is "Moon in a Dewdrop" more of a highlights/greatest hits of Shobogenzo and not the whole thing? Thanks.

            Gassho
            ST/LAH
            James

            Comment

            • Shinshi
              Senior Priest-in-Training
              • Jul 2010
              • 3717

              #21
              Originally posted by James
              To clarify something about the versions of Shobogenzo; Since the Tanahashi version seems to be the consensus preferred version, is it only available in the hardcover and the on-line version? I don't see a less expensive paperback version out there. Is the Tanashashi translation; "Treasure of the True Dharma Eye, Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo" at $67. the complete works? Once obtained is the full Shobogenzo contained therein? Another volume is not needed to complete the works, correct?

              Is "Moon in a Dewdrop" more of a highlights/greatest hits of Shobogenzo and not the whole thing? Thanks.

              Gassho
              ST/LAH
              James
              Hi James,

              I'll let others provide a definative answer but the edition of Treasure of the True Dharma Eye, Zen Master Dogen's ShoboGenzo at Amazon has the same number of chapters as the other editions. So it certainly looks complete. There is a slipcase version that is two volumes - but it is the same total content. The slipcase version is $200.00 - which makes the $67.00 version look like a good deal.

              Gassho, Shinshi

              SaT-LaH
              Last edited by Shinshi; 03-25-2019, 08:12 PM.
              空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi

              For Zen students a weed is a treasure. With this attitude, whatever you do, life becomes an art.
              ​— Shunryu Suzuki

              E84I - JAJ

              Comment

              • Shoki
                Member
                • Apr 2015
                • 580

                #22
                Shinshi,

                Thanks for the response. Yes, I like $67. better than $200.

                Gassho,
                ST/Lah
                James

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40711

                  #23
                  Originally posted by James
                  To clarify something about the versions of Shobogenzo; Since the Tanahashi version seems to be the consensus preferred version, is it only available in the hardcover and the on-line version? I don't see a less expensive paperback version out there. Is the Tanashashi translation; "Treasure of the True Dharma Eye, Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo" at $67. the complete works? Once obtained is the full Shobogenzo contained therein? Another volume is not needed to complete the works, correct?

                  Is "Moon in a Dewdrop" more of a highlights/greatest hits of Shobogenzo and not the whole thing? Thanks.

                  Gassho
                  ST/LAH
                  James
                  Hi James,

                  I just want to add that, for folks new to Dogen, and maybe all but the most serious Dogen readers, I do recommend Tanahashi's "Best of" collections. There are three, and they have been out for many years:

                  Moon in a Dewdrop


                  Enlightenment Unfolds


                  Beyond Thinking


                  The complete ""Treasury of the True Dharma Eye" is wonderful, and it is lovely to support Tanahashi Sensei's lifetime of effort, but I actually recommend the "Best Of" books because they highlight what are considered Dogen's signature and most representative works.

                  Tanahashi's collection called "The Essential Dogen" is too short and abbreviated (just random quotes), so I do not recommend that either.

                  If you want a complete Shobogenzo, the Nishijima-Cross is available online for download, for free too (PDF, in 4 Vol.) here.



                  Gassho, Jundo

                  STLah
                  Last edited by Jundo; 03-26-2019, 09:32 PM.
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Shoki
                    Member
                    • Apr 2015
                    • 580

                    #24
                    Thank you, Jundo.

                    Gassho
                    S2D/Lah
                    James

                    Comment

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