Versions of Shobogenzo and nine bows

[Seibu]

Some people here close their posts with nine bows and I wonder what that means. Secondly, is there a difference between Shobogenzo and Shobogenzo Zuimonki? You see, I looked up Shobogenzo and I found a free copy of Shobogenzo Zuimonki at the website of the official Soto Zen Buddhism website, but I also came across the four books of Nishijima Roshi's Shobogenzo, and the good thing is that they are available where I live. Would you recommend any specific translation of Shobogenzo?

Gassho,
Jack
Sattoday/lah

[Horin]

Hello kakedashi, i hope i can help you so far:

To the Shobogenzo: the central teachings of master dogen and the foundament of soto school.. I like the nishijima/cross-translation, but work with another nishijima-based translation in german language.

the Shobogenzo-zuimonki is a collection of informal dharma talks, very interesting stuff

9 bows: afaik a way to express deepest respect

Gassho,
Ben

Stlah

[Mp]

Hello kakedashi, i hope i can help you so far:

To the Shobogenzo: the central teachings of master dogen and the foundament of soto school.. I like the nishijima/cross-translation, but work with another nishijima-based translation in german language.

the Shobogenzo-zuimonki is a collection of informal dharma talks, very interesting stuff

9 bows: afaik a way to express deepest respect

Gassho,
Ben

Stlah

Yuppers, I agree. =)

Gassho, Deep bows, Nine bows ... all mean the same if done so from the heart, dropping the ego, and for the benefit of all sentient beings.
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Some people here close their posts with nine bows and I wonder what that means. Secondly, is there a difference between Shobogenzo and Shobogenzo Zuimonki? You see, I looked up Shobogenzo and I found a free copy of Shobogenzo Zuimonki at the website of the official Soto Zen Buddhism website, but I also came across the four books of Nishijima Roshi's Shobogenzo, and the good thing is that they are available where I live. Would you recommend any specific translation of Shobogenzo?

Gassho,
Jack
Sattoday/lah

Hi Jack,

Let me drop in some small things to what was said above.

Nine Bows are a most formal greeting in Chinese and Japanese Buddhism for very formal times, such as when meeting a teacher that one highly respects, or when wishing to express special gratitude to such a teacher. We have the standing Gassho (which also has various degrees of formality, depending on how deeply one bows, and how rigidly the elbows are kept up at a proper 90 degree angle), and Three Prostrations (usually said to represent "Buddha, Dharma, Sangha"). Beyond that, Buddhists like multiples, so 9 is 3 x 3. I guess that it can go up to the "magic number" of 108, which is a multiple of 9 too, by the way. Many Korean Zen folks do a daily set of 108 bows.

If you would like to really blow your mind, here is a list of some of the many meanings of 108, not only in Buddhism, but throughout Indian religions:

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/The_Mystic_Meaning_of_the_Number_108

A beautiful comment by Suzuki Roshi here on 9 bows (p 201)

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=BZhGdGzPkGsC&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=buddhism+%22nine+bows%22&source=bl&ots=_6sjsJY0zR&sig=ACfU3U1fQBWTtJ_JQQ6SYGA-yjKAclPjVQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwin9NDp3fPgAhUqCqYKHZohCm4Q6AEwBHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=buddhism%20%22nine%20bows%22&f=false

By the way, yes, this is all Chinese and Japanese formal culture, from ancient times, while in the west and modern times we have become more "handshake" people. So, if you wish, I give you permission to shake hands with Buddha. It is okay. However, please read Suzuki's comment and you might see a benefit to bowing. It is a lovely practice of humility. Do you know that, as you go down to the ground in gratitude to the universe, the universe and earth might be simultaneously seen as raiding you up? Here is a talk and lesson on bowing for our annual Rohatsu retreat at Treeleaf:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16597-ATTENTION%21-Our-2018-AT-HOME-2-DAY-ROHATSU-RETREAT-PREPARATORY-LESSONS&p=233404&viewfull=1#post233404

However, I do not compel anyone to bow so, and leave it to each person's heart. Sometimes it is good to do what someone resists, however.

As to your other questions:

I am now, this year, going through my 4th cycle of reading everything written by Master Dogen back to back. I am very much enjoying the new full translation of Shobogenzo by Tanahashi Sensei (expensive, but the most popular portions have been available for years in his collections "Moon In a Dew Drop" and "Enlightenment Unfolds." I recommend those to start, and they can be easily found for purchase) Online as a PDF, my teacher Nishijima (with my Dharma Bro. Chodo Cross) are available fully online to download:

http://www.bdk.or.jp/bdk/digital/

and as PDF

http://www.bdk.or.jp/english/english_tripitaka/digital_download.html

I have been told by some Dogen scholars that the Nishijima-Cross is perhaps the most precise and faithful to Dogen's words of all the full translations, but the Tanahashi version is perhaps the most readable and best at capturing the poetry of the language so important to Dogen (although Tanahashi must sometimes paraphrase a bit in order to do so). Stay away from the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives/Shasta Abbey version by Rev. Hubert Nearman available as a PDF online (to make a long story short, he went for a King James-ish "Thou" and "Thine" kind of feeling in keeping with the Christian inspiration of the Order, and often really really deviates from what the original says when I have looked closely at it). Dharma Bro. Brad Warner has a couple of popular books where he tries to modernize Shobogenzo language, but I don't think it is seriously faithful to Dogen although lovely and fun in spirit (he does things like change Dogen's references to "rice and tea" to "chips and pepsi.") Brad's books are most fun, I found, for folks who are already familiar with the originals. The Soto Zen Text Project is a wonderful group of translations (with extremely helpful scholarly footnotes on Dogen's quoted sources) that were pulled down from online recently as the scholars behind it are getting their final publication ready.

The Zuimonki is a short collection of Dogen's talks. It is available for free from Soto-shu with some other things. I recently reread it too. Here is my advice on that to help you understand Dogen: When he gave some of those talks, he had just gathered a bunch of monks in his Sangha from another Zen group that was outlawed and it seems those monks might have had low morale and were not sure that they wanted to be with Dogen. Also, Dogen was kind of an outcast in Kyoto at the time, which was dominated by older sects of Buddhism, so was struggling for money to support the temple. For that reason, a LOT of the talks in Zuimonki (and the Shobogenzo too) are Dogen giving locker room pep talks and chewings out like a football coach about how monks don't need money or popular recognition, and why the monks needs to buckle down and get serious. He could be a hard ass when he wanted to be. He also had a soft face when needed.

https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/Zuimonki/index.html

Gassho, J

STLah

[Seibu]

Thank you all for your helpful and insightful comments, they help me develop and deepen my practice and I really appreciate this . Thank you Jundo for directing me to the available resources, recommendations, and for providing the cultural and historical significance/context. Now I got more reading material to add to my favorite reading list of all time . Yesterday I received and started reading Opening the Hand of Thought: the part about conceptions of time is mind-blowing.

Gassho,
Jack
SatToday/lah

[Jundo]

We also have a couple of threads on how to read Dogen's jazzy, free rapping style, that may help (pending my book on Dogen being published by Wisdom Publications in Summer 2020 plug plug ) ...

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-Love-Supreme

How to Read Dogen
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-to-Read-Dogen

Gassho J

stlah

[Chishou]

Sumimasen!

I have been trying to find Gakudo Yojinshu/Guidelines for studying the way, is it in the Shobogenzo?

3³ bows,
Chishou


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Horin]

Hello Chishou,
No, the gakudo yojin shu is not part of the shobogenzo.
i have found a version available online here:

https://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/GakuDoYoJinShu.pdf

Gassho,
Ben


Stlah

[Meitou]

Hello Chishou,
No, the gakudo yojin shu is not part of the shobogenzo.
i have found a version available online here:

https://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/GakuDoYoJinShu.pdf

Gassho,
Ben


Stlah

Thank you for this Ben.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday lah

[Jakuden]

Hello Chishou,
No, the gakudo yojin shu is not part of the shobogenzo.
i have found a version available online here:

https://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/GakuDoYoJinShu.pdf

Gassho,
Ben


Stlah

Yes thank you! [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

I think this is the same version from 'Moon in a Dewdrop' available on The Zen Site:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Guidelines_for_Studying.htm

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Shinshi]

I think this is the same version from 'Moon in a Dewdrop' available on The Zen Site:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Guidelines_for_Studying.htm

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Thanks Kokuu. It is interesting to see a different translation.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

Thanks Kokuu. It is interesting to see a different translation.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

I looked at these two versions of Gakudo Yojin shu today, and it was interesting.

I would say that the version by Tanahashi, from Moon is a Dewdrop, is the most readable, and conveys a bit of Dogen's sense of the poetry in language. The Nishiijima-Cross version (I think everyone knows that Nishijima Roshi is my Teacher) is more literal in tracking the grammar. However, it makes it a bit clunkier to read, and also Nishijima Roshi had some phrases he liked to use that are a bit personal to him (e.g., "will to the Truth" while Tanahashi says "the thought of enlightenment.") On the other hand, Tanahashi is sometimes paraphrases a bit to keep it smooth, and papers over some ambiguities in the original, so is not quite as literal as Nishijima. This is true too for the respective Nishijima-Cross and Tanahashi versions of Shobogenzo.

Overall, I would recommend the Tanahashi version for ease of reading, although it is always good to read 2 or 3 versions side-by-side to triangulate what the original might actually have said. HOWEVER, the Tanahashi version posted is only the first half, and the second half (6 thru 10) seems to be missing!

So, here is a better link to the Tanahashi version that is complete, complements of Village Zendo ...

https://villagezendo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/dogen_guidelines.pdf

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shinshi]

Thank you Jundo.



Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Mp]

Thanks Jundo ... Dharma triangulation is always good thing. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH