Buddhist infighting

[AlanLa]

This was inspired by the Big Mind thread, but I decided this was the bigger issue, thus it needed its own space.

One of the things that has always impressed me about Buddhism is how it embraces the concept of non-duality – no right/wrong, just being whole and not separate, etc. So I am always puzzled whenever I see Buddhists arguing amongst themselves over their different forms of practice, how one is right and another is wrong. Even Dogen (in Beyond Thinking, by John Daido Loori) railed against those that have wrong practice and how he was giving everyone right practice. Isn’t this attachment to duality? And besides, the Buddha said not to take his word for it (dogma) but rather a person needs to find out for him or herself. And since there are many different kinds of self out there in terms of physical makeup and personal experiences, it seems to me that there are lots of different “right” ways for people to practice, thus transcending this whole right/wrong practice issue. To say a practice is wrong or right seems dogmatic to me, and that’s not the Buddhism I signed up for. One of the main reasons I turned away from theistic religion was to get away from just this sort of right/wrong talk.

For example, take this Big Mind practice being promoted by Genpo Merzel and denounced by Brad Warner, among others (see other forum thread). I am not up to speed on this whole Big Mind controversy, if that’s the right word, but I don’t recall ever hearing about Genpo Merzel saying that other practices are wrong, just that his practice works for some people. Yet his detractors seem to try and discredit that practice as wrong. That seems petty to me… but that’s just me, and what do I know. Anytime someone says I am right and the other guy is wrong I get squeamish about that person (this includes Dogen). One of the things I like about Jundo is that he doesn’t get into this sort of petty stuff. I am aware that he has been the victim of it in the past, which might be one reason why he doesn’t get into it. Anyway, I believe it is to his credit that he stays above the fray.

Finally, it occurred to me this morning that Buddhists seem to get along better with other religions than they do with different practices within Buddhism. Jews, Christians, and Muslims fighting amongst each other is sort of similar to different Buddhist practices disagreeing with each other. Of course the scale of disagreement is much smaller in Buddhism, as I am unaware of any Buddhist Crusades such as Pure Land vs. Zen, for example.

There’s a koan in here somewhere… Ah, yes, I think I see it.

But anyway, please enlighten me with your thoughts on Buddhist infighting?

[Fuken]

Re: Buddhist infighting

I am unaware of any Buddhist Crusades such as Pure Land vs. Zen, for example.

This happened. Quite a bit in Japan. But I am sure other places as well.

Gassho,
Jordan

[AlanLa]

Re: Buddhist infighting

So there really were Buddhist versions of the crusades! Huh, we really are scared little humans no matter what our beliefs. How enlightening to hear of such un-enlightenment.

[Dainin]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Hi AlanLa,

Thanks for the post. You expressed some of the same feelings I've had over the last 3 years of Zen practice. I wrote about it here a few months ago. I felt the same way when I was a practicing Catholic, which is just one of the things that turned me away. The whole dogma of "we have the correct practice and you don't... neener, neener" has always struck me as childish and nonproductive. Like you, I'm happy to say I haven't seen a whole lot of it here, but I have seen it in Dogen's writings (e.g., Bendowa), as well as in the writings of some his contemporary disciples. While a practice, style, religion, or philosophy may not work for me, it may work for others. And as long as it's not doing any harm, I say go with God.

Gassho,
Keith

[Jen]

Re: Buddhist infighting

While I do see the Big Mind as a get enlightened quick scheme that preys on peoples insecurities or worse for a large profit, infighting in the past (and possibly the present in some cases) was largely a matter of survival or quest for power in this life. Many religions and various sects there of had to remain the dominant belief of the land to avoid being persecuted. You had to be the one the king or local leader followed or you became the enemy,especially if the religion was popular with the common population and the local leader was not. This lead to some basic "we're right and you're wrong" arguments done purely for survival at one time that eventually lead to being ingrained in believers minds to the point that future generations continued the argument without ever knowing why it started in the first place. Also, often the fighting occurs because of a few power hungry and greedy people at the top wanting more. Let the king smile on them then let the donations to the church flow into their pockets. Or, worse in my opinion, they positively feed on the adoration of their followers.

This is not to say that fighting amongst ourselves is right or wrong. But there are historical reasons of why it has occurred and it may just be a bad habit continued by modern generations.

Gassho,
Jen

[Ryumon]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Disagreements are certainly healthy in any context, because they can make people think more deeply about things and try and come to conclusions. Unfortunately, people like Brad Warner who cultivates a persona of snarkiness (that's the polite way of saying he's way too often an asshole), turn disagreements into real battles. The Internet breeds such things as well, by anonymity. I doubt that the kinds of things you read in some forums (not this one, fortunately) about Buddhism would get spoken face-to-face.

On a broader level, there certainly have been schisms in Buddhist thought, but I don't think any of them led to the same kinds of wars that monotheistic and polytheistic religions have led to. (But I certainly my be wrong.)

Kirk

[Fuken]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Disagreements are certainly healthy in any context, because they can make people think more deeply about things and try and come to conclusions. Unfortunately, people like Brad Warner who cultivates a persona of snarkiness (that's the polite way of saying he's way too often an asshole), turn disagreements into real battles. The Internet breeds such things as well, by anonymity. I doubt that the kinds of things you read in some forums (not this one, fortunately) about Buddhism would get spoken face-to-face.

On a broader level, there certainly have been schisms in Buddhist thought, but I don't think any of them led to the same kinds of wars that monotheistic and polytheistic religions have led to. (But I certainly my be wrong.)

Kirk

Oh thats so funny Kirk, you almost got me! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Ryumon]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Um, what about it was funny?

Kirk

[Fuken]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Um, what about it was funny?

Unfortunately, people like Brad Warner who cultivates a persona of snarkiness (that's the polite way of saying he's way too often an asshole), turn disagreements into real battles. The Internet breeds such things as well, by anonymity.

Kirk

I thought you were being snarky. since you are one of the most anonymous people here. And there is a few hundred years of history of snarkiness in zen.

It would be a real shame if I was mistaken. ops:

[Ryumon]

Re: Buddhist infighting

I thought you were being snarky. since you are one of the most anonymous people here.

"...most anonymous people here"? What does that mean?

Kirk

[aikoku tora]

Re: Buddhist infighting

from what I've studied in anthropology, and through other various studies, and time in other parts of the world, even the infighting between Buddhist sects is tame and its very very rare that any physical action was taken.

most of the end results I see when it comes to separation of beliefs tend to be an exile, which often, like is the case when Shinran shonen was chased off, ended up founding jodo shinshou, those outside just buid upon what they believe and it grows in relative peace...

but your right, Buddhists seem in my studies to me the most relaxed about the splintering in it's family...dare we even look at the judao family ( which does include Islam) and how often they have turned a blade, or burning stake or gun, or car bomb at each other over the most subtle of differences ..

[Fuken]

Re: Buddhist infighting

"...most anonymous people here"? What does that mean?

Kirk

That's a good question! But I think it is wandering off topic.

Take good care,
Jordan

[AlanLa]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Kieth said: While a practice, style, religion, or philosophy may not work for me, it may work for others. And as long as it's not doing any harm, I say go with God.

Yes, I agree. As long as the precepts are being followed, I don't see much problem with simple disagreements about practice as long as people are respectful and honor individual differences. My problem is when it stops being a discussion of practice and starts getting personal, which would seem to be a violation of right speech. Saying something is right/wrong still seems dualistic, and that dualism in regards to a practice that is supposed to help us do away with dualism troubles me, but I also understand we need that dualism for the real world power issues (as talked about by Jen), among other things.

This occurred to me this morning regarding Buddhist disagreements: when sitting just sit, and when arguing about Buddhism just argue about Buddhism. This might explain why those arguments can be so vociferous sometimes, but it does not explain those personal attacks that happen. Saying a form of practice is bogus/wrong is not great (see paragraph above), but saying the practitioner is an idiot asshole snarky snake oil sales person only in it for the money, or whatever (insert personal insult here) seems to go way out of precepts bounds.

Finally, mea culpa: Beyond Thinking was edited by Tanahashi, not Loori.

[Fuken]

Re: Buddhist infighting

My problem is when it stops being a discussion of practice and starts getting personal,

Alan,
Isn't practice personal?

Gassho,
Jordan

[AlanLa]

Re: Buddhist infighting

AlanLa wrote:
My problem is when it stops being a discussion of practice and starts getting personal,


Alan,
Isn't practice personal?

Gassho,
Jordan

Personal insults don't seem like right speech, but personal discussion of practice does seem like right speech.