Buddhist infighting

[chicanobudista]

Re: Buddhist infighting

"Doctrinal" disagreements are part of being human. Buddhism is no exception. From the day of the First Council up to now, disagreements arose (and they still are). I can't think of major disputes between Buddhist that led to wars, but there have been times when disputes have gotten out of hand. Here is one example:

BBC World: Asia-Pacific
Monks charged over temple violence
Thursday, December 24, 1998 Published at 12:11 GMT

South Korean police have charged 28 people, most of them monks, after a day of pitched battles to oust members of the order from occupying a temple.

A total of 77 people were detained after up to 1,000 riot police were brought in to storm the Chogye Temple on Wednesday.

Around 100 monks had barricaded themselves inside for 43 days. During the battles, some threatened to commit suicide rather than surrender.
[....]
The dissident monks took over the temple last month after ousting a rival faction in a bitter dispute over who manages South Korean Buddhist funds worth millions of dollars.

As far Ven. Warner, I have his two books and really find them informative. His blog is...well...a blog. I think he is choosing the Ikkyu path of Buddhism. :mrgreen:

[Voton]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Of course the scale of disagreement is much smaller in Buddhism, as I am unaware of any Buddhist Crusades such as Pure Land vs. Zen, for example.

From the introduction to Enlightenment Unfolds: The Essential Teachings of Zen Master Dogen, Tanahashi, ed.:
"It {approx. 1205 A.D.} was a dark and confusing time for Buddhists. All the high positions of the Tendai establishment were occupied by people from aristocratic families. Temples were competing with one another to gain imperial patronage, offering a variety of magical prayers. Mt. Hiei {near Kyoto} housed one of the strongest of the various armies of monk soldiers who frequently engaged in battle, often burning other monasteries. "
Tanahashi goes on to describe how the Tendai establishment arranged for the imperial government to expel the popular Pure Land founder, Monk Honen, from Kyoto in 1207. Dogen eventually was targeted by the Tendai sect as well, forcing him to found a monastery in Fukakusa, near Kyoto, and then in Echizen, in an isolated mountain area well north of Kyoto, to escape all this violence and political intrigue.

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Hey All,

Let me jump right into this thorny thicket ...

I absolutely agree with the idea that different paths are right for different people, one size does not fit all. My best friend in life and his wife became evangelical Christians many years ago, it turned his life completely around for the good, they raised a lovely family and are happy. It was certainly the right way for them, if not for me or others. I think Buddhism would likely not have been the right way for my friend, given his needs and personality.

Same with the so-called "Rinzai Kana (Koan) Zazen v. "Soto 'Just Sitting' Shikantaza" thingy ... DIfferent strokes for different folks, and the hard Japanese Rinzai style might suit some personality types, Shikantaza other personality types. I know which way is right for me, and I have a suspicion that more people (especially Western lay people) benefit from Shikantaza than Koan Zazen Practice, so I teach that way. But that is just an opinion, and both the high road and the low road might get you to the Bonnie Bonnie Banks of Loch Loman. Some folks in my own Lineage, including Nishijima Roshi, are much more partisan than I am.

Now, all that being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with civil, reasonable, constructive, non-aggressive, intelligent debate, opinion and disagreement on the merits and demerits, pros and cons of different practices. Nothing at all. (It is just that people, these days, seem to have lost the art of civil discourse, be it about religion, politics or any subject at all ... especially on these here "internets"). It is the one thing I strive to maintain here at Treeleaf ... discuss about anything concerning Buddhism and religion, but be "kind to each other and gentle in tone". I think it has worked so far.

I agree with Alan ...

Personal insults don't seem like right speech, but personal discussion of practice does seem like right speech.

Let's try to remember to be civil and "kind to each other" in this thread too please. :?

But anyway, please enlighten me with your thoughts on Buddhist infighting?

Physical violence (beyond mere ideological debate or agrument) has happened, but rarely. The whole "non-violence" aspect of Buddhism usually prevents differences and disagreements from going beyond the verbal into the physical. There have been violent sects of Buddhists in Asian history from time to time ... but, like the Tendai warriors of Old Japan or the Sungbyong of 16th century Korea, usually they were really soldiers dressed as monks caught up in the political wars of the time (or the large Buddhist temples had become more political players, rather than religious institutions, not unlike the Catholic Church's history in Europe in many a century past) ... In the following cases, it was not Buddhist infighting, but really just political wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sohei

http://buddhistmilitarysangha.blogspot. ... rrior.html

Note on Dogen: He was quite non-critical of others and ecumenical when he first started teaching (asserting that there is no "Zen" or "Soto Zen", only "Buddhism" for example), but he did become more critical of other sects, including of Rinzai Zen, later on. One reason is that, by that point in time, the powerful Tendai and Rinzai Zen temples in Kyoto and Kamakura had pretty much run Dogen, the upstart, out of town so that he had to build Eiheiji in the boondocks and were always giving him a pretty hard time ... and he also had issues with trying to unite diverse monks in his monastery, who had come from very different backgrounds, into a single teaching ideology. Plus, like a lot of us, he may just have gotten a bit crotchety in his (relatively) old age. :evil:

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/putney1.htm

South Korean police have charged 28 people, most of them monks, after a day of pitched battles to oust members of the order from occupying a temple.

As I understand the story ... the major Buddhist order in South Korea (the Chogye branch of Zen) is a huge institution, a great church part of which (just part) is corrupt as all heck. That one part is in with the politicians and money interests doing land deals, business deals ... you know, CORRUPTION. The 'monk riot' was related to that. And many of the 'monks' were not even monks (you can tell from the photos of the guys with the gas and knives), but hired 'Yakuza' (mafia) and other thugs dressed up in monks robes for the day. You can read a very detailed discussion of the story here:

http://www.geocities.com/volodyatikhono ... ghting.htm

As to Ven. Brad Warner, mentioned here several times (and I have received a couple of PM over the last couple of days about him), well, I am just going to reprint here some parts of something I wrote awhile back. I don't try to hide this. ... I hope he and I can disagree while maintaining kindness and "Right Speech" about some criticisms I have of his way of doing things, namely, his interpretation of "Right Speech" ... :wink:

I would like to say that I have long been one of Brad's strongest defenders, and I still am. I know that may sound strange, but it is true. (Brad also, I am sure, would not care or want anyone to defend him ... but I get asked about Brad so often that I defend him, plus I truly mean what I say in his defense). In fact, I wrote the following just the other day to some other Buddhist clergy who are very critical of Brad. It also hints at why I feel I must criticize him so strongly about some things.

Over the last few years, I have grown more and more critical within the Sangha of some of his activities. In fact, I even went so far as to ask my teacher to declare my own Treeleaf Sangha as independent, because I was not happy with the situation (Nishijima Roshi granted me that last year). Brad and I have butted horns a few times. But, in order to explain that, I would actually like to defend him here a bit ...

-- Brad was always first and foremost, I think, in the mold of those fiery, wrathful Tibetan Dieties who turned their power against ignorance. He is as serious a Zazen teacher as you will encounter, and rarely if ever has turned his words or actions against people (he has been a critic of some other Buddhist teachers, and in the strongest terms ... but almost always for doctrinal reasons.). If you look closely at his fire, it is almost always directed at what he considers to be the fake, hypocritical, deceiving or harmful in the Buddhist world or in society, and his wrath is emitted in the cause of hard Zen practice. If you ever met him, he is gentle, soft spoken and kind ... very unlike his written persona. If you look at his writings very closely, he is using vitriol and ugly language against falsity and ignorance, not against people. (His most recent article was in no way in support of the lifestyle he described, if you read it closely).

-- As was noted by someone (I cannot find the quote right now), he speaks to a generation that is completely different from the generation of 'old codgers' and ex-hippies that are most current Zen teachers. I can see in my own Sangha that I have trouble relating to many folks in their 20's (and younger) or early 30's, and Brad succeeds. His first book attracted hundreds and hundreds of people to Soto practice who never would have started and so many of those folks have stuck with it and gone deeper (I have a bunch in my Sangha, and others probably do too). One of his recent projects has been to write for an online magazine aimed at the folks with the body piercings and tattoos ... Brad makes a darn good argument that folks like that need to hear about Buddhism, that Brad is one of the few teachers equipped to talk to people like that, that in order to do so he needs to speak their language. If you look closely at his writings, he is not approving the lifestyle (certainly, he is 100% anti drink and drugs), and is preaching Buddhism to folks it is hard to preach to. If you want to talk to folks, you have to go where they hang out.

That being said, I have been a strong critic of Brad very often. I think he sometimes forgets his real intent and falls into shock for shock's sake. I thinks he often overdoes it and comes across as petty and mean. In fact, this week, I publicly let loose on him with both barrels ... certainly I myself forgot "Right Speech" in the process, something I regret. I described the way he runs his website as resembling the "Jerry Springer" TV show or a circus... shock shock shock and dirty words wrapped in a fishwrap pseudo moral talk (at least, it comes across that way even if he is sincere). I am disgusted because I feel he has overstepped a line several times in recent years. The teaching has sometimes become secondary to his need to get the "F-word" in somewhere in his essays. Whatever his intent, it does not come across well.

Even if not one's real intent, it is just not proper to be spreading a message that it is okay to be a cursing and insulting, angry against people (even if he just comes across that way and is not like that inside) Buddhist. You cannot be an "insulting and angry against people Buddhist." Sorry. It is like being a doctor who advocates cigarette smoking, a peace activist who shoots anyone who disagrees with him. It does not compute.

On the Precepts, I agree with Rev. Nonin. and Anders. I could not have said it any other way myself. I do not manage my own Sangha in any other way, and we treat each other with kindness and dignity. The Buddhist concept of right speech is not just an "old tradition", but a darn good teaching. We take the Precepts as being at the heart of our Practice, hand in hand with Zazen.

Right speech is the first principle of ethical conduct in the eightfold path. Ethical conduct is viewed as a guideline ... which supports the other principles of the path. This aspect is not self-sufficient, however essential, because mental purification can only be achieved through the cultivation of ethical conduct. The importance of speech in the context of Buddhist ethics is obvious: words can break or save lives, make enemies or friends, start war or create peace. Buddha explained right speech as follows: ... not to use words maliciously against others,. to abstain from harsh words that offend or hurt others. ... , Positively phrased, this means to tell the truth, to speak friendly, warm, and gently and to talk only when necessary.

Fortunately, with me and Brad ... it is quite unlikely that we will mount armies against each other. :|

Gassho, Jundo

[chicanobudista]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Fortunately, with me and Brad ... it is quite unlikely that we will mount armies against each other. :|

Well. It could be done thru 2nd Life or Dungeons and Dragons, but....that's geeky! :mrgreen:

[Shohei]

Re: Buddhist infighting

^^HAHA or WoW

Gassho
Dirk

[Tb]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Hi everybody.

I like the idea of WH fantasy, alot of zealots and priests going at each other...

May the force be with you
Tb

[Tb]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Hi everybody.

I think i have read an article stating that dogen wasnt soto or rinzai according to his writings and so forth.
The question being, why, if he wasnt soto, is Dogen sangha/treeleaf sangha soto? (or is it?)
Is it just a question of "the easiest way"?

May the force be with you.
Tb

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Hey Tb,

Dogen wasn't Soto or Zen or Buddhist or Christian or Jewish or Chinese or Japanese or Swedish or Martian in the way, in out Practice, all walls come tumbling down ... and neither is Treeleaf. In fact, what "Treeleaf"?

But otherwise, Dogen was the person who brought Soto (Caodong in Chinese) Zen to Japan, and our ways and traditions are particular enough to be called a particular sect of Zen/Ch'an Buddhism ... to which Treeleaf and my Teacher surely belong.

I would be interested in seeing the article to which you refer.

Gassho, Jundo

[Tb]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Hey Tb,

Dogen wasn't Soto or Zen or Buddhist or Christian or Jewish or Chinese or Japanese or Swedish or Martian in the way, in out Practice, all walls come tumbling down ... and neither is Treeleaf. In fact, what "Treeleaf"?

But otherwise, Dogen was the person who brought Soto (Caodong in Chinese) Zen to Japan, and our ways and traditions are particular enough to be called a particular sect of Zen/Ch'an Buddhism ... to which Treeleaf and my Teacher surely belong.

I would be interested in seeing the article to which you refer.

Gassho, Jundo

Hi everybody.
I'm waiting for slapsko (bengt) to come home from skåne so i can get it back.
I'll keep you on your toes until then...

and here's another article in the matter...
http://scbs.stanford.edu/calendar/1999- ... foulk.html

May the force be with you
Tb

[AlanLa]

Re: Buddhist infighting

All this talk of warring monks and crotchety old Dogen (my word exactly, Jundo) makes me think of West Side Story for some reason. I picture Dogen dancing with his monks as they all sing "When you are Zen you are Zen" and so on. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Altho maybe old Dogen was more like Officer Krupke :roll: :roll: :roll:

Sorry if I offend, just having fun...

[Fuken]

Re: Buddhist infighting

I think this is the article TB may have been refering to, It is from Master Dogen's Bendowa.

Q: Samadhi dwells in the three training, and dhyanaparamita (means of meditation) in the six means of enlightenment. All Bodhisattvas study them from the beginning. They train without discriminating cleverness and stupidity. Even this zazen may be a part of them. Why do you say that the true law is gathered in zazen?

A: This question comes from giving the name "Zen sect" to the treasury of the essence of the true law, and to the unexcelled doctrine-the most important teachings of the Buddha. You must understand that the name "Zen sect" emerged from China and the East; it was not heard in India. When Bodhidharma stayed at Shao-Lin ssu in Sung-shan, gazing at the wall for nine years, the priests and laymen did not understand the true law of the Buddha; they called him a Brahmana who emphasized sitting cross-legged. Afterward every patriarch devoted himself to sitting cross-legged. Unenlightened laymen who saw them carelessly referred to them as the zazen sect without understanding the truth. Today the "Za" has been dropped, and the followers of this practice are known as members of the Zen sect. This is clear in the manuscripts of the patriarchs. You must not equate zazen with the meditation in the six means and the three training. The spirit of transmission in Buddhism is clear in the career of the Buddha. To Mahakasyapa alone on Grdhrakuta Mountain the Buddha transmitted the eye and treasury of the true law, the superior mind of enlightenment and supreme doctrine, and some gods in heaven saw it. Don't doubt this. The gods of heaven protect Buddhism eternally. This is still a living fact. You must understand that zazen is the full way of Buddhism. It is incomparable.

There is a nice transcription here:http://civet-cat.skandinaviskzencent...gs/bendowa.htm

With a note that I have seen a wide varieties of translations of this, others are not as kindly worded.

Gassho,
Jordan

[Fuken]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Also an interesting article here:http://books.google.com/books?id=yqZ...esult#PPA35,M1

[Tb]

Re: Buddhist infighting

I think this is the article TB may have been refering to, It is from Master Dogen's Bendowa.

There is a nice transcription here:http://civet-cat.skandinaviskzencent...gs/bendowa.htm

With a note that I have seen a wide varieties of translations of this, others are not as kindly worded.

Gassho,
Jordan

Hi everybody.

Actually, no. I' refering to some articles in which they "prove" their thesis that there are another "branch" of the zenbranch of the buddhismtree.
I thought it was more or less common knowledge that "buddhistscholars", perticulary those interested in the zenbranch, say that there are three different subbranches (or even four i've heard someone say...) in the zenbranch: Soto, Rinzai, and Dogen.

They often use Bendowa and other texts from the shobogenzo to prove their point.
I, myself stumbled across this when i researched a little for my masterthesis but thought nothing of it until i posted in this thread...

May the force be with you
Tb

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhist infighting

Also an interesting article here:http://books.google.com/books?id=yqZ...esult#PPA35,M1

Yes, that is a book by Maezumi Roshi of the White Plum, which is the Harada-Yasutani-Sanbokyodan-Diamond Sangha lineage. It is a beautiful chapter, but the average Zen reader should be aware of one thing when reading anything from that particular lineage:

As I have written about before, that particular branch of Soto is a relatively recent hybrid of Soto and Rinzai that emphasizes Koan centered Zazen over Shikantaza (although they practice both at various stages of their training) and seeking big "Kensho". They also may sometimes speak of Shikantaza done with a hard Rinzai edge, for example, practice until you "sweat" and have an "explosion" (as was found in the chapter on Shikantaza by Yasutani Roshi in the recent book "The Art of Just Sitting"). That is all fine and good, and to each his own.

As I said, all are paths up the mountain.

But the only thing I have to say about it is that folks in that lineage are always writing books and articles in which they try to prove or assert that Dogen was also a "Koan Zazen" or "Big Kensho seeking" guy. He simply was not, no matter how much they try to revision history. (Our Soto perspective on "Kensho", by the way, is that sometimes such views appear, sometimes they do not, sometimes they are big little or not, and all is the scenery of Zazen. We run after nothing, seek no special states ... with the perspective that "not seeking to-the-marrow any special state" --IS-- a very very special state and way to be).

That line is much much more influential outside Japan than in Japan, because it happens to be the source of such lineages as the Diamond Sangha (Aitken Roshi), Rochester Zen Center (Kapleau Roshi) and the White Plum (Maezumi Roshi). While the Sanbokyodan portion left Soto-shu, some of their people stayed within Soto-shu in name. More power to them, but the attempts sometimes to unite that with "Just Sitting" Dogen are often an awkward fit at best.

I wrote this once ...

One has to be cautious in reading 'Zen' books ... because 'Zen' really comes in two somewhat different flavors. I have spoken about this before.

On the one hand is the flavor of those Zen schools that teach that we are out to achieve something, usually called 'Satori' or 'Enlightenment', and this is done though Practice, primarily Zazen (and typically Zazen focused on 'solving Koans'). This perspective, to paint with a broad brush, is usually associated more with the 'Rinzai' school (or lineages that are 'Rinzai-Soto hybrids, like Maezumi Roshi's lineage and the Sanbokyodan) than traditional Soto school teachings.This 'Satori' clears away illusions and lets us realize our 'True Self before our mother and father were born'.

On the other hand, the traditional Soto teaching (as represented by Dogen, for example) is that what we need to 'achieve' is the realization of radical non-achievement. We both see through life (seeing that all phenomena are impermanent, unsatisfactory and lack 'self-hood') AND that all phenomena and life in general are 'just what they are' with not a darn thing to change. This realization is illusions cleared away, our 'True Self', now and before our mother and father were born. The 'Koans' melt away and are resolved, WIsdom and Compassion manifest. We drop all judgments and categorizations about life, likes and dislikes, and just allow things to be even beyond ideas of "being" or "not being" (although, of course, we simultaneously require judgments, 'being/not being' and other ideas, catergorizations and likes-dislikes in order to live daily life, so we keep these on another 'channel' at the same time). The way we realize this is not by thinking that 'Practice" (such as Zazen) is to achieve 'enlightenment', but that Practice and all of life --is-- already enlightenment itself.

The key to our approach is that giving up all idea of a revolution --IS-- a revolution achieved, for this is attaining non-attaining!

The difference between the two approaches may be like, in the first case, running all over looking for your nose, and in the second case, finding your nose by going no place and realizing it was there all along and you did not need to do anything to 'find' it! I like to think that both approaches get you to the same place in the end (which is no place, and just your nose being where it belongs), but 'Zen' books can be misleading as they are phrased differently depending on the perspective, but don't often say that they are of one type or the other. One of the most radical examples of the first 'goal oriented' types is 'Three Pillars of Zen' (a book I do not recommend because of its radical insistence on an explosive, life changing 'Kensho' experience) and books by D.T,Suzuki, and of the second type, 'Opening the Hand of Thought' (which we are reading in the Book Club) and 'Zen Mind Beginners Mind' by Shunryu Suzuki (don't confuse your Suzukis!!).

So around here I teach 'Just Sitting' Shikantaza, which means that we practice very very hard for no goal at all, in order to realize that there is nothing about life to add or take away, it all is what it is ... like a mountain is just a mountain, and the 'Venus d'Milo' is perfectly the 'Venus d'Milo' despite her missing limbs.

Gassho, Jundo

PS- Alan wrote ...

Sorry if I offend, just having fun...

As long as its good natured, anything and everything around here is fair game. NOTHING is sacrosanct.

(Except anything Jundo says, of course) 8)

Gassho, Jundo

[Voton]

Re: Buddhist infighting

I can see in my own Sangha that I have trouble relating to many folks in their 20's (and younger) or early 30's, and Brad succeeds.

Not to belabour the Brad thing, but I'm in my mid-50's, and, had it not been for his blog and books, I would have probably given up on the whole practice of Western Zen (not, I emphasise, Zen itself) as a tiresome old hippie fad years ago. I see him as a satirist: he skewers the nerdy elements of American Zen so accurately that I laugh aloud, and then think, yikes, I do that too, don't I? It's that realization that makes him a great teacher. His (fairly) recent blog posts about how Buddhists use words such as "mindful" and "skillful" as pompous jargon were brilliant. The fact that so many people refer to him as "an asshole" shows how accurately his barbs hit their targets. His language is simply his teaching technique: the equivalent of a teacher striking his student to shock him into kensho. Besides, I'm amazed that anyone's shocked by by language and sex talk: you'll hear the same, and worse, just brushing up against any TV show or film these days.