More Scandal in the Wider Buddhist Sangha ...

**Shinshi** · 08-26-2018, 06:19 PM

Both of these just really got me going this week. Poor Jundo had to endure a rant from me about the Noah Levine situation. Coming from a punk background like Noah I kind of resonated with his story - even though I found his books a bit over the top. And I had just been reading Gesshin Claire Greenwood's account of her own experience of this when the news came down. And it got me kind of worked up.

I think that Jundo's point about all the great people out there doing good work is really important. But I also posted in the Facebook Soto Zen page that, personally, I think that a more active approach needs to be considered. I think it isn't enough that policies and Codes of Conduct are created. I think they get look at and filed away. I think Teachers really need to look at proactive training about how to handle these issues. Something that is ongoing.

I think some of these people are predators. But I think some just don't recognize the power disparity and how that can play into situations like this. And both parties think they are feeling something real when, in fact, it is about a lot more than true emotions. This comes up in other areas, Educational Institutions, Psychological Therapy, etc. Psychologists recognize this issue and have specific training about it - at least my program did.

Anyway, the thing that gets me worked up is that you have people entering a situation where they should be safe, and where there is attention paid to make sure they are not vulnerable to exploitation. Instead they are exploited - and I can't imagine what a betrayal that must be. To be afraid to speak out, to tell your experience in a place where you have gone to try to become the best person you could be. Instead that institution breaks you down.

Ok, I am ranting again. Much metta to all. Wish there was more I could do.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

**Jishin** · 08-26-2018, 06:28 PM

More Scandal in the Wider Buddhist Sangha ...

We are all bad. We are all good.

"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye"

"Don't judge lest you be judged."

"When a finger points, 3 point back."

Teachers are held to higher standards but they are humans.

All humans are capable of bad acts. The bad deeds need to be addressed to ensure they are not repeated.

You can not not teach and you can not not learn. I am sure these teachers have done something right.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Mp · 08-26-2018, 07:25 PM

We all make mistakes, that is part of being human. Sometimes we know what we are doing, sometimes we don't. Either we have to take responsibility for our actions regardless.

It does however make me sad and somewhat angry that humans exploit other humans. We do need to stop doing this. I know out precepts speak of not judging others, but I do feel it is important to judge folks on their actions if they arw doing harm ... If we don't, how will things change for the better?

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

**Zenmei** · 08-26-2018, 11:01 PM

As I’ve mentioned before, Refuge Recovery is the reason I’m here. I got sober nearly 3 years ago with the help of Refuge Recovery. I’ve started 2 Refuge groups and facilitated a meeting every week for the past 2 and a half years. Until I found Treeleaf, Refuge was my primary Buddhist practice. So this has been a big part of my life for a while now. I don’t think it’s exaggerating to say I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t read Noah’s book when I did. And I know the same is true for thousands of addicts who have been helped by the book that has his name on it and the organization he founded.

I have a lot of feelings about it. Right this second, it’s a lot of anger. Noah was in a position to help so many people, and he squandered it. I don’t know the details of his misconduct, the allegations were never made public, but his reaction to them and his actions since show pretty clearly that he’s more interested in helping himself than in helping the community. Right or wrong, a lot of folks in a very vulnerable state did look to him as a source of wisdom, and now they’re left wondering what to do.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

**Jishin** · 08-26-2018, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by Zenmei

I have a lot of feelings about it. Right this second, it’s a lot of anger. Noah was in a position to help so many people, and he squandered it. I don’t know the details of his misconduct, the allegations were never made public, but his reaction to them and his actions since show pretty clearly that he’s more interested in helping himself than in helping the community. Right or wrong, a lot of folks in a very vulnerable state did look to him as a source of wisdom, and now they’re left wondering what to do.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

He still in a position to help a lot of people. Maybe more so then before. He can recover and then teach recovery.

In 12 step meetings a senior member sometimes agrees to sponsor a junior member. Senior falls down and then junior is the new senior who sponsors the new junior.

Senior and junior are both adults and both vulnerable.

It can be an opportunity for growth.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Zenmei** · 08-26-2018, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by Jishin

He still in a position to help a lot of people. Maybe more so then before. He can recover and then teach recovery.

Totally agree. As I just said in the Refuge FB group, the ball’s in his court.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

**Jundo** · 08-27-2018, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Zenmei

As I’ve mentioned before, Refuge Recovery is the reason I’m here. I got sober nearly 3 years ago with the help of Refuge Recovery. I’ve started 2 Refuge groups and facilitated a meeting every week for the past 2 and a half years. Until I found Treeleaf, Refuge was my primary Buddhist practice. So this has been a big part of my life for a while now. I don’t think it’s exaggerating to say I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t read Noah’s book when I did. And I know the same is true for thousands of addicts who have been helped by the book that has his name on it and the organization he founded.

I have a lot of feelings about it. Right this second, it’s a lot of anger. Noah was in a position to help so many people, and he squandered it. I don’t know the details of his misconduct, the allegations were never made public, but his reaction to them and his actions since show pretty clearly that he’s more interested in helping himself than in helping the community. Right or wrong, a lot of folks in a very vulnerable state did look to him as a source of wisdom, and now they’re left wondering what to do.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

He fell down. He should immediately get back up again, reflect and make amends, start from "Day 1."

Is that not the way of refuge and recovery?

Apparently, he got over the drugs and drink, but still had sex issues. I think that getting over the drugs and drink alone is reason to celebrate, even if he obviously had remaining and serious failings in other aspects of his life and psychology. He is not and never was a "saint," only a flawed human being who found a path to getting over most (not all) of his flaws. He let people and himself down in some (not all) ways. He obviously needs a bit more work in other aspects. I anticipate that he will come through this with time. I am most concerned for anyone else, such as you express, who might feel let down somehow. That is not an excuse for saying that the program was not a success even though some battles were lost.

Let me also caution that me do not yet know the details of what transpired.

Let us sit and offer Metta for anyone else, innocent bystanders, who might be hurt in some way too.

Gassho, J

STLah

**Shinshi** · 08-27-2018, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Jundo

He fell down. He should immediately get back up again, reflect and make amends, start from "Day 1."

Is that not the way of refuge and recovery?

Apparently, he got over the drugs and drink, but still had sex issues. I think that getting over the drugs and drink alone is reason to celebrate, even if he obviously had remaining and serious failings in other aspects of his life and psychology. He is not and never was a "saint," only a flawed human being who found a path to getting over most (not all) of his flaws. He let people and himself down in some (not all) ways. He obviously needs a bit more work in other aspects. I anticipate that he will come through this with time. I am most concerned for anyone else, such as you express, who might feel let down somehow. That is not an excuse for saying that the program was not a success even though some battles were lost.

Let me also caution that me do not yet know the details of what transpired.

Let us sit and offer Metta for anyone else, innocent bystanders, who might be hurt in some way too.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

**Jundo** · 08-27-2018, 02:28 AM

Let me add this, perhaps dangerous to say in this wonderful time when #metoo is front and center (as it should have been long ago).

Not all these scandals are the same.

Fortunately, as far as I know, there have been no cases in the Zen world of child abuse that have come to light. I see no evidence that, like the Catholic Church, pedophiles are particularly drawn to Buddhism as their were to the Catholic clergy. There have been cases that appear to involve young monastic boys in the traditional Tibetan world even recently, and it may have gone on between monks and young acolytes in the Zen monasteries in centuries past (however, as disgusting as it is to us, especially in modern times, it was more socially acceptable in ancient times in Asia. That is just a fact. Fortunately, it is now not acceptable.). I am not saying that such people are not out there now, but I know of no such cases.

There have been few cases in the Soto Zen world apart from Baker Roshi of SFZC, whose falling down was an affair with a married woman who was a student and the wife of a friend, and who was otherwise a bit of a megalomaniac. I don't believe that he slept with other students except that one case. Sorry, I think it is wrong that we include that scandal, apparently between consenting and mature adults, in the same basket as others even if it is wrong to sleep with a student.

Maezumi Roshi was an alcoholic (a medical condition that even Buddhist masters can suffer) who, especially when drunk, slept with several female students. Katagiri Roshi seems to have gotten sexually involved with a student or students at a certain period.

Affairs between balanced, mature, free thinking, consenting adults are one thing even if students (grown adults sometimes fall in love, but even so, I do not believe it should be permitted during an ongoing teacher-student relationship even then. Most Zen Sangha now have a 6 month cooling off period after the teacher-student relationship ends.). Taking advantage of the position and weight of being teacher to manipulate psychologically vulnerable students is another thing altogether. The cases are not the same, although both unacceptable.

At the other extreme, the Rinzai teachers Shimano and Sasaki engaged in groping, coercion of the psychologically vulnerable, that went on for decades.

Trungpa and his son, in their "Shambhala" Kingdom, and this Sogyal fellow, were really out of control with alcohol, sexual and psychological abuse.

Do not lump Baker Roshi with the rapists and abusers, for example.

We do not know yet where Noah Levine falls on this scale.

As well, do not forget the hundreds of good teachers who cause no harm, live gently and only help sentient beings, so grab no headlines. Sorry, a few bad apples do not spoil the orchard. Some may disagree.

Nonetheless, let us never let our guard down, and let us continue to study and live the Precepts to keep us from doing harm to self and others.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

**Kyoshin** · 08-27-2018, 05:21 AM

Personally, as disappointed as I am that Noah Levine seems to have engaged in sexual misconduct, I'm even more disappointed that his organization, which by all accounts has done great work, is shutting down because one guy acted like jerk. I would have hoped that they could follow the example of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, when they booted Lance, changed their name, and kept right on doing good work.
Gassho
Nick
Sat

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**Jundo** · 08-27-2018, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by nickbo

Personally, as disappointed as I am that Noah Levine seems to have engaged in sexual misconduct, I'm even more disappointed that his organization, which by all accounts has done great work, is shutting down because one guy acted like jerk. I would have hoped that they could follow the example of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, when they booted Lance, changed their name, and kept right on doing good work.
Gassho
Nick
Sat

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I have the feeling that is really what will happen, but with folks going various directions.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

**Jippou** · 08-27-2018, 05:28 AM

As a Catholic I’m so disgusted by the Church hierarchy I am looking to leave. The question for me is to try to find another Christian community to join or to do Jukai with you all and take the precepts focus on my meditation practice. These scandals aren’t helping me either, but as Jundo points out, they seem to be on a different scale of magnitude. I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.

Gassho
Sat Today, Jason

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**Jundo** · 08-27-2018, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Majere

... I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.

Yes, well, can't really get away from the dark side of human nature even there.

The Precepts help us navigate through this difficult, sometimes ugly, world. Our Practice allows us to see through both the beautiful and the ugly, yet the ugly remains.

Elite Tasmanian school informs parents of child sex abuse claim

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-14/historic-sex-abuse-allegations-at-hobarts-friends-school/9147126

The principal of The Friends' School in Hobart says a former student has come forward alleging they were sexually abused by a senior staff member who worked at the Quaker-led institution decades ago.

Gassho, J

STLAH

**Kyoshin** · 08-27-2018, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Majere

As a Catholic I’m so disgusted by the Church hierarchy I am looking to leave. The question for me is to try to find another Christian community to join or to do Jukai with you all and take the precepts focus on my meditation practice. These scandals aren’t helping me either, but as Jundo points out, they seem to be on a different scale of magnitude. I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.

Gassho
Sat Today, Jason

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Hi Jason,
As a fellow Catholic (nominally, anyway; I keep a virgin Mary next to my Buddha) I'm with you as far as disgust in the Catholic hierarchy goes. You're definitely not alone there. I don't know if you are aware, but there are Independent Catholic churches that exist because priests and bishops are just as disgusted as you and have left the hierarchy. Some, like the Liberal Catholic Church, have been around for 100 years, some are more recent. They tend to be hyperlocal, but some are bigger, and they run the gamut from "stuck in 1752" conservative to "I don't think that counts as Catholic anymore" progressive and everything in between. Full disclosure: one of my best friends is a priest in the American National Catholic Church (one of the bigger Independent Catholic churches), and I attended his parish regularly when I still lived nearby. Anyway, I'm not trying to evangelize, but I've heard over and over Catholics say something like "I wish I had a place to go and still be Catholic, but I can't be associated with the hierarchy." Options exist, but most of them are terrible at getting the word out. Just thought I'd toss that out there in case you're interested
Gassho,
Nick
Satlah

EDIT: Just in case my intentions aren't clear, I'm REALLY not trying to evangelize, just point out the existence of things interested parties may not be aware of. If this post is inappropriate, please let me know and I'll delete.

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More Scandal in the Wider Buddhist Sangha ...

More Scandal in the Wider Buddhist Sangha ...

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