More Scandal in the Wider Buddhist Sangha ...

[Jishin]

I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

IMG_0141.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Sekishi]

In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."

That says it so much more succinctly than my wordy mess. Thank you Zenmei.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat

[Zenmei]

But I have also heard (in Buddhist context more than anywhere else) - atonement . Forgiveness without atonement (or in other way around) is incomplete, no?

I wouldn't necessarily say "incomplete", but yes, kind of. When I talk about forgiveness, I'm usually only talking about letting go of resentment and anger. This kind of forgiveness doesn't require atonement or making amends. It's unconditional and one-sided. I can forgive you without you ever knowing about it. We often have to be able to forgive without ever interacting with the person we're forgiving. In cases of abuse or other serious harm, it may not be wise to have this person in our lives. Sometimes we need to forgive someone who's passed on. We can do this, because this part of forgiveness is only about how we relate to our own thoughts and feelings.

But that doesn't say anything at all about our relationship with the other person. We can forgive someone and choose never to speak to them again. In order to repair our relationship, I may have to show you that I understand how I've hurt you, and show you that I understand how not to hurt you in the future. That kind of atonement or making amends may be necessary for healing a relationship, and it may make forgiveness easier, but I think it's separate from forgiveness.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

[Jundo]

I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

I wouldn't necessarily say "incomplete", but yes, kind of. When I talk about forgiveness, I'm usually only talking about letting go of resentment and anger. This kind of forgiveness doesn't require atonement or making amends. It's unconditional and one-sided. I can forgive you without you ever knowing about it. We often have to be able to forgive without ever interacting with the person we're forgiving. In cases of abuse or other serious harm, it may not be wise to have this person in our lives. Sometimes we need to forgive someone who's passed on. We can do this, because this part of forgiveness is only about how we relate to our own thoughts and feelings.

But that doesn't say anything at all about our relationship with the other person. We can forgive someone and choose never to speak to them again. In order to repair our relationship, I may have to show you that I understand how I've hurt you, and show you that I understand how not to hurt you in the future. That kind of atonement or making amends may be necessary for healing a relationship, and it may make forgiveness easier, but I think it's separate from forgiveness.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

Two very wise viewpoints.

As hard as it is, in Buddhism, we generally say that there are no "bad people," only people who act badly because of the disease of excess desire, anger or divided thinking (ignorance) that infects them within, the Karma that brought them to that place. There but for the grace of Buddha go I.

That said, we may still have to punish wrongdoers legally and socially in civil society.

Yes, the wrongdoer should atone and seek to make amends as they can, but the recipient of the harm should try to forgive nonetheless whether they do or not.

I have also advised child abuse and like victims that one can let the past go AND honor and recognize the past, feel the pain of old physical and mental scars, at the same time. Yes, one can forgive, yet honor the fact that parts of oneself may not be able to totally forgive, at once. Forgive and not forgive at once. I think that better than either pretending that one must always be a complete saint and fully forgiving, or at the other extreme, become someone drowning in anger and resentment. In Zen, we can do seemingly contradictory things like that at once, as if on different channels of our feeling. So, recognize that there may be a deep part of the brain that may always feel hurt and anger at violence done to oneself or those one loves, and honor that fact, but also rise above it and let it go too. I feel that our Buddhist Ancestors (especially in the Mahayana) were still human beings who did not learn to escape all human emotions, but to tame and honor them ... like people who kept the fires burning in the hearth rather than burning down the house.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Zenmei]

I have also advised child abuse and like victims that one can let the past go AND honor and recognize the past, feel the pain of old physical and mental scars, at the same time. Yes, one can forgive, yet honor the fact that parts of oneself may not be able to totally forgive, at once. Forgive and not forgive at once. I think that better than either pretending that one must always be a complete saint and fully forgiving, or at the other extreme, someone drowning in anger and resentment. In Zen, we can do seemingly contradictory things like that at once, as if on different channels of our feeling.

Very much so. I think sometimes there’s this idea that forgiving is a thing you do once and then you’re done with it, but it’s a process. Especially with the big stuff. It comes and goes. One day you’re fine with it, the next you’re angry again. That doesn’t mean you’ve failed at forgiveness, it just means human emotions are complex.

One of the things I love about Zen is that it embraces that complexity, acknowledges that yeah, sometimes I hate you and I love you at the same time. And that’s okay.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

[Tai Shi]

I am so relieved that I have taken my vows with the precepts when I read some of this. Much of the commentary scares me to the very fibers of my femurs, and I've had two knee replacements, the anger and even rage I read here is close to murder. The first precept is observed in my life, and though I eat meat, by the way I AM also a Christian; As a Buddhist I have found myself pounding the keyboard when I type, so to step back and say I try to bless my morning meal. I am concerned with the level of anger, focused on sex offenders, and as a boy of six I first remember my mother explaining what the teenage boy had done to the little kid right next to his house, and this one right out in the open of his driveway. I was scared to death as I watched the teen being led to the patrol car, and in handcuffs, I had seen this action performed on TV, but see I was innocent. I didn't see the gravity of this. I was after all I was six-years-old. Yes, by this age the serious nature of this act was pounded into my little skull, so what's next for a six-year-old; is the sanctity of life treated thus, as we treat the ears of a six-year-old boy that his own parts might be violated, this memory brings me to tears, and as an adult the tears start to form then held back, and just as a little boy I am grateful my mom won't (didn't) let this happen to me, and I now I look on in horror.

Gassho
Tai Shi
st-lah

[Daitetsu]

For those interested in this matter, Noah Levine has now responded with a statement in which he denies the allegations:

https://www.lionsroar.com/against-the-stream-confirms-sexual-misconduct-by-noah-levine-centers-to-shut-down/

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[Jundo]

For those interested in this matter, Noah Levine has now responded with a statement in which he denies the allegations:

https://www.lionsroar.com/against-the-stream-confirms-sexual-misconduct-by-noah-levine-centers-to-shut-down/

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

It seems much more subtle and ambiguous than just "denies," and nobody outside yet knows what this is about or what the heck exactly is going on. We live in a complicated time, and it is impossible to judge all the indirect hints and lawyerly code words used here.

I advise to keep an open mind, and not jump to conclusions either way, until more specific information comes out.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meitou]

For those interested in this matter, Noah Levine has now responded with a statement in which he denies the allegations:

https://www.lionsroar.com/against-the-stream-confirms-sexual-misconduct-by-noah-levine-centers-to-shut-down/

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

The unseemly haste with which everyone concerned raced to disassociate themselves with Levine and shut down the centres suggests more is involved than is being disclosed, either on their part or his. I can't even tell from their statement whether they've actually sat down with him and really discussed any of this. I can only feel compassion for everyone concerned, including Levine.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday lah

[Zenmei]

The unseemly haste with which everyone concerned raced to disassociate themselves with Levine and shut down the centres suggests more is involved than is being disclosed, either on their part or his. I can't even tell from their statement whether they've actually sat down with him and really discussed any of this. I can only feel compassion for everyone concerned, including Levine.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday lah

I believe there were some internal power struggles going on at ATS, and these allegations were just the final straw.

Noah went to the ethics council and admitted to an inappropriate relationship shortly before this came out. The conversation was happening for at least a few months before they decide to investigate.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat)

[Zenmei]

It seems much more subtle and ambiguous than just "denies," and nobody outside yet knows what this is about or what the heck exactly is going on. We live in a complicated time, and it is impossible to judge all the indirect hints and lawyerly code words used here.

I can’t judge whether the allegations are true. We don’t even know what they are. Noah has admitted to causing harm with his sexuality and not considering his teaching role in his personal dating life. I don’t think promiscuity is wrong in and of itself, but I do think that you have to be very, very careful to avoid causing harm. And I’m not sure I buy the argument that you can separate your personal life from your teachings like that. He’s not teaching algebra, what he is teaching is intimately related to how he lives his life. I feel for him. It does seem, as you suggested earlier, that this is a manifestation of his addiction.

I just feel like a responsible teacher, after admitting to causing harm with his sexuality and not taking his teaching role seriously, would at least take a break from teaching to examine his behavior.

Edit: and let me add that his admissions seem much more of the "I'm sorry you were offended" variety than genuine regret or intention to change any behavior. I can't see in his heart, but that's how he's coming across to a large part of the community.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat)

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,

It seems much more subtle and ambiguous than just "denies," and nobody outside yet knows what this is about or what the heck exactly is going on. We live in a complicated time, and it is impossible to judge all the indirect hints and lawyerly code words used here.

I advise to keep an open mind, and not jump to conclusions either way, until more specific information comes out.

That's how I think, too. Sorry if I made the impression to see it in a certain way or taking one side. With "deny" I simply referred to his statement:

That said, I will likewise also continue to tell the truth about what never happened, such as the accusation that I assaulted someone.

However, I fear that there will be more confusion and speculation on all sides, which will make it even more difficult to find out the truth.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[Shinshou]

I'm just gonna leave this here. It was posted by Emmet a few months ago on the Random Quote thread.

Kannon's Prayer for the Abuser

To those who withhold refuge,
I cradle you in safety at the core of my Being.
To those that cause a child to cry out,
I grant you the freedom to express your own choked agony.
To those that inflict terror,
I remind you that you shine with the purity of a thousand suns.
To those who would confine, suppress, or deny,
I offer the limitless expanse of the sky.
To those who need to cut, slash, or burn,
I remind you of the invincibility of Spring.
To those who cling and grasp,
I promise more abundance than you could ever hold onto.
To those who vent their rage on small children,
I return to you your deepest innocence.
To those who must frighten into submission,
I hold you in the bosom of your original mother.
To those who cause agony to others,
I give the gift of free flowing tears.
To those that deny another's right to be,
I remind you that the angels sang in celebration of you on the day of your birth.
To those who see only division and separateness,
I remind you that a part is born only by bisecting a whole.
For those who have forgotten the tender mercy of a mother's embrace,
I send a gentle breeze to caress your brow.
To those who still feel somehow incomplete,
I offer the perfect sanctity of this very moment.
unknown

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

[Aurkihnowe]

i read an article by a survivor of this abuse (a woman, but in today's climate, men are not immune to unwanted sexual advances from roshi's, rinpoche's, and others)...she was terrified about coming forward at the time, and the teacher told her it would bring shame on the sangha (as if he hadn't done so already) and now this woman counsels other sufferers of assault (calling a wolf a wolf)...there are now laws, and will continue to be more in the future, against clergy sexual abuse, and these people coming forward are prime examples about why such egregious sexual misconduct must be monitored...

[Kokuu]

she was terrified about coming forward at the time, and the teacher told her it would bring shame on the sangha

Sadly I have read of several cases of this, which just seems like a modern Buddhist equivalent of "You'll bring shame on the family". As in that case, we need to make it clear that it is the abuser who brings shame, not the victim and, in my opinion, any sangha which acts to protect an abuser is complicit in the abuse.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-