The best place to start with Dōgen.

[tlsk]

Hello All,

I’ve read a fair amount of “beginner’s” or “intro to zen” type books, and I’m thinking now would be a good time to break into studying the big man himself: Dōgen. The only problem is, where? Should I start with commentaries, or go right into Shobogenzo? Is it even worth studying him at all at this point in my practice?

Any guidance at all would be much appreciated!

-Taylor

SatToday


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[Chishou]

Hello Taylor,

Text wise, Fukanzazengi and Genjokoan are a must to read. Read different translations and some commentaries.

Okumura’s Realising Genjokoan is an excellent book.

Mike Chodo Cross also does a Fulanzazengi commentary somewhere online, I have it printed I can scan for you if you can’t find it.

I may get some flak for this, but Brad Warner does a good job at introducing people to Dogen in “Don’t be a jerk” and “It cam from beyond Zen”.

Bells and bows,
Chishou,
Sat


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[Horin]

hard to explain but in my experience, there are chapters/passages that i understand now but that i didnt understood some time ago. So i started from time to time to read several chapters again, especially that i did not understood. i do not try to go into it much intellectually but more reading the "context", or better leaving the thoughts aside and just go into it. Sometimes i dont understand sometimes i just agree with my own experience

[Tairin]

I am far from an authority but “Instructions for the Cook” (see “How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”) seems like a good place to start in part because it is easy to see how to relate the text to one’s own life and practice.


Tairin
Sat today

[BadChemEng]

I am fortunate enough to live close to Indiana and will be going to Genzo-e with Shohaku in May. Hopefully that will be a nice introduction and study.

[Troy]

I started reading this one based on Jundo’s recommendation. I am really enjoying it. The author uses plain language and makes Dogen accessible which I appreciate. I am learning a lot.




Sat2day

[tlsk]

Thanks, guys! I’m a huge fan of Uchiyama and Okumura—I’ve read Opening the Hand... and The Zen Teaching of Homeless Kodo—so I’ll definitely be looking into those.

I’ll look into the ones by Brad Warner, too. I’ve actually listened to the audiobook of Sit Down and Shut Up, but haven’t come across the other ones.

Thanks again!

-Taylor
SatToday


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[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I have actually just completed two (2) book on "How to Read Dogen" (called "Letters from Dogen"), making his style accessible to modern readers. Look for those in print in the coming months. Just finishing the manuscripts (thanks Kirk!). In the meantime, here's a big hint ...


SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9332-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Dogen-A-Love-Supreme

How to Read Dogen

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7765-How-to-Read-Dogen

I would not recomment Okumura Roshi's commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra" for people very new to Dogen (I think it better to have some handle on the old guy first), but I would very much recommend his "Realizing Genjo Koan."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRFL1UI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Also, I second the Uchiyama commentaries on Tenzo Kyokun (although technically not a part of "Shobogenzo") by Uchiyama Roshi, “Instructions for the Cook” (“How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”)

https://www.amazon.com/How-Cook-Your-Life-Enlightenment-ebook/dp/B00DRFL1UI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1535243444&sr=8-1&keywords=uchiyama+how+to+cook+life&dpID=51C93KRfxdL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I actually have mixed feelings about Brad's two "simplifications" of Dogen (which stimulated me to write my books in part). They are a bit too dumbed down and I thinks he fluffs the explanations sometimes. It is cute how he plays with things (changing "rice and tea" to "fritos and coke" and such), but I am not sure that it makes Dogen much clearer. So, I actually don't know whether to recommend them that strongly. I would read them, but note that fact. "Don't be a Jerk" is fun and wonderful if you take it that way, but the second book "It Came from Beyond Zen" was most interesting to me because I am a Japanese translator who knew well the originals he was working with (he spends most of his commentary talking about his word choices compared to the original).

To understand Dogen, it is actually necessary to have some grounding in the basic Mahayana philosophy and other (often themselves pretty wild) works that he was using as his "standard tunes" for his playful jazz. Otherwise, it is like trying to understand Picasso's creative image of a chair without ever having seen or sat in a real chair. So, my "How to Read Dogen" threads above point to some excellent books by Taigen Dan Leighton and others that introduce that, and are very much recommended before diving into Dogen.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Troy]

The best place to start with Dōgen.

Hi Guys,

I have actually just completed two (2) book on "How to Read Dogen" (called "Letters from Dogen"), making his style accessible to modern readers. Look for those in print in the coming months. Just finishing the manuscripts (thanks Kirk!). In the meantime, here's a big hint ...


SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9332-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Dogen-A-Love-Supreme

How to Read Dogen

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7765-How-to-Read-Dogen

I would not recomment Okumura Roshi's commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra" for people very new to Dogen (I think it better to have some handle on the old guy first), but I would very much recommend his "Realizing Genjo Koan."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRFL1UI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Also, I second the Uchiyama commentaries on Tenzo Kyokun (although technically not a part of "Shobogenzo") by Uchiyama Roshi, “Instructions for the Cook” (“How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”)

https://www.amazon.com/How-Cook-Your-Life-Enlightenment-ebook/dp/B00DRFL1UI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1535243444&sr=8-1&keywords=uchiyama+how+to+cook+life&dpID=51C93KRfxdL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I actually have mixed feelings about Brad's two "simplifications" of Dogen (which stimulated me to write my books in part). They are a bit too dumbed down and I thinks he fluffs the explanations sometimes. It is cute how he plays with things (changing "rice and tea" to "fritos and coke" and such), but I am not sure that it makes Dogen much clearer. So, I actually don't know whether to recommend them that strongly. I would read them, but note that fact. "Don't be a Jerk" is fun and wonderful if you take it that way, but the second book "It Came from Beyond Zen" was most interesting to me because I am a Japanese translator who knew well the originals he was working with (he spends most of his commentary talking about his word choices compared to the original).

To understand Dogen, it is actually necessary to have some grounding in the basic Mahayana philosophy and other (often themselves pretty wild) works that he was using as his "standard tunes" for his playful jazz. Otherwise, it is like trying to understand Picasso's creative image of a chair without ever having seen or sat in a real chair. So, my "How to Read Dogen" threads above point to some excellent books by Taigen Dan Leighton and others that introduce that, and are very much recommended before diving into Dogen.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Thank you Jundo. I am going to check out Realizing Genjokoan too. I am have read a couple books on Dogen but still consider myself a newbie. Please let us know when your books are available. That is exciting news!


Sat2day

[tlsk]

Hi Guys,

I have actually just completed two (2) book on "How to Read Dogen" (called "Letters from Dogen"), making his style accessible to modern readers. Look for those in print in the coming months. Just finishing the manuscripts (thanks Kirk!). In the meantime, here's a big hint ...


SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9332-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Dogen-A-Love-Supreme

How to Read Dogen

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7765-How-to-Read-Dogen

I would not recomment Okumura Roshi's commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra" for people very new to Dogen (I think it better to have some handle on the old guy first), but I would very much recommend his "Realizing Genjo Koan."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRFL1UI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Also, I second the Uchiyama commentaries on Tenzo Kyokun (although technically not a part of "Shobogenzo") by Uchiyama Roshi, “Instructions for the Cook” (“How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”)

https://www.amazon.com/How-Cook-Your-Life-Enlightenment-ebook/dp/B00DRFL1UI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1535243444&sr=8-1&keywords=uchiyama+how+to+cook+life&dpID=51C93KRfxdL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I actually have mixed feelings about Brad's two "simplifications" of Dogen (which stimulated me to write my books in part). They are a bit too dumbed down and I thinks he fluffs the explanations sometimes. It is cute how he plays with things (changing "rice and tea" to "fritos and coke" and such), but I am not sure that it makes Dogen much clearer. So, I actually don't know whether to recommend them that strongly. I would read them, but note that fact. "Don't be a Jerk" is fun and wonderful if you take it that way, but the second book "It Came from Beyond Zen" was most interesting to me because I am a Japanese translator who knew well the originals he was working with (he spends most of his commentary talking about his word choices compared to the original).

To understand Dogen, it is actually necessary to have some grounding in the basic Mahayana philosophy and other (often themselves pretty wild) works that he was using as his "standard tunes" for his playful jazz. Otherwise, it is like trying to understand Picasso's creative image of a chair without ever having seen or sat in a real chair. So, my "How to Read Dogen" threads above point to some excellent books by Taigen Dan Leighton and others that introduce that, and are very much recommended before diving into Dogen.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Thank you, Jundo!

Gassho.

SatToday


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[EricLeo]

Hi Taylor - I can recommend Rev Master Jiyu's translation of part of Shobogen zo in Zen is Eternal Life. She has a very straightforward, intuitive style.

[Jundo]

Hi Taylor - I can recommend Rev Master Jiyu's translation of part of Shobogen zo in Zen is Eternal Life. She has a very straightforward, intuitive style.

Rev. Kennett was also very much a mystic and seer of visions, so also expect that in many a commentary by her. She sought to bring the sacred and worshipful flavor of an Anglican Christian text into her translations, which she describes as follows (capitals are all hers) ...

The translation in this book is not literal for the very good
reason that, were it so, the book would lose much of its true
feeling and flavour; instead, I have tried to give the religious
fervour, with which Dogen obviously wrote, its full value. The
main teaching of the Soto Church that he brought with him was
that no words or scriptural text could adequately express the
Spirit of Buddhism and therefore those who were bound by such
words and scriptures could understand nothing of the Truth
which had been Transmitted by the Buddha Himself to His first
disciple, Makakashyo, who had, in his turn, handed it on, from
disciple to disciple, down the line of Ancestors to the present
day.

(p 91)

In much the same way, I must also caution that the Shobogenzo translation of the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives/Rev. Hubert Nearman is extremely "King James" flowery in the style of that Lineage to bring a somewhat Christian flavor to many of their texts, ceremonies and practices. I also found, in writing my books, that Rev. Nearman often took very great liberties with the Japanese original, often adding much or interpreting in ways that is simply not there.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[MyoHo]

Thank you for all the good comments so far. May I add that rev. Taigu did a few very good talks about Genjokoan. They are all on Youtube. Since it is the first Chapter of the Shobogenzo it contains a lot of what follows in the many books or essays Dogen wrote. In my opinion, Genjokoan is a very good place to start but not without some help. I think one must study it not only read it like a magazine meaning, look, read, listen and dive into all that can be found on the subject. Sit with it. Find the question to ask and search for the answers. Rev Taigu calls it "diving into the clear blue sea of the Genjokoan". Because it is deep, vast, spacious, mysterious and clear at the same time. So glad to hear Jundo is almost ready with his writings. Very mutch looking forward to that.

Gassho

MyoHo

[Eishuu]

I enjoy jumping in and reading the Shobogenzo. I do read commentaries as well but there is something about reading Dogen himself that is just wonderful, having that direct connection with him. Last year for Ango I read the first of the Nishijima/Cross translations https://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Doge...rds=shobogenzo This year I will be reading the second. I don't think you need to understand it all for it to affect you.

I also don't think there's any right place to start. See what grabs you and speaks to you. It's probably a lifetime's work anyway!

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Ryumon]

I'll second, third, and fourth the recommendation for Instructions for the Cook. It's down to earth, easy to read, and not very long. It's a lot more accessible than Fukanzazengi or Genjokoan.

Gassho,

Kirk