The best place to start with Dōgen.

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  • Meitou
    Member
    • Feb 2017
    • 1656

    #16
    Originally posted by Jundo
    Hi Guys,

    I have actually just completed two (2) book on "How to Read Dogen" (called "Letters from Dogen"), making his style accessible to modern readers. Look for those in print in the coming months. Just finishing the manuscripts (thanks Kirk!). In the meantime, here's a big hint ...


    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme
    Really gettin' DOGEN'S WILD SOUND is a lot like gettin' THIS WILD SOUND ... (Please give a listen, and keep it playing while you read the rest of this post) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEAYIJfTJ3U I've described Dogen as a JHANA JAZZ MAN-POET, riffing and free expressing-reexpressing-bending-straightening-unbinding


    How to Read Dogen
    LONG POST A few excerpts for some tips and hints I've posted from time to time for those who want to dip into a bit of Shobogenzo ... ---- In my own "in a nutshell" description of how to approach Shobogenzo ... I often describe Dogen as a Jazzman, bending and re-livening the "standard tunes" of Zen


    I would not recomment Okumura Roshi's commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra" for people very new to Dogen (I think it better to have some handle on the old guy first), but I would very much recommend his "Realizing Genjo Koan."

    How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment - Kindle edition by Uchiyama, Kōshō. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment.


    Also, I second the Uchiyama commentaries on Tenzo Kyokun (although technically not a part of "Shobogenzo") by Uchiyama Roshi, “Instructions for the Cook” (“How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”)



    I actually have mixed feelings about Brad's two "simplifications" of Dogen (which stimulated me to write my books in part). They are a bit too dumbed down and I thinks he fluffs the explanations sometimes. It is cute how he plays with things (changing "rice and tea" to "fritos and coke" and such), but I am not sure that it makes Dogen much clearer. So, I actually don't know whether to recommend them that strongly. I would read them, but note that fact. "Don't be a Jerk" is fun and wonderful if you take it that way, but the second book "It Came from Beyond Zen" was most interesting to me because I am a Japanese translator who knew well the originals he was working with (he spends most of his commentary talking about his word choices compared to the original).

    To understand Dogen, it is actually necessary to have some grounding in the basic Mahayana philosophy and other (often themselves pretty wild) works that he was using as his "standard tunes" for his playful jazz. Otherwise, it is like trying to understand Picasso's creative image of a chair without ever having seen or sat in a real chair. So, my "How to Read Dogen" threads above point to some excellent books by Taigen Dan Leighton and others that introduce that, and are very much recommended before diving into Dogen.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLAH
    Those two threads Jundo We don't need no drugs in this Sangha
    I'm committing to Dogen for this Ango, looking forward to the trip!
    Many thanks for all recommendations here.

    Gassho
    Meitou
    satwithyoualltoday/lah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

    Comment

    • Kokuu
      Dharma Transmitted Priest
      • Nov 2012
      • 6946

      #17
      Hi all

      My advice comes as a novice priest so should be taken with a pinch of salt (at least).

      I agree with Eishuu that reading straight from Dogen can be a really beautiful experience, feeling the poetry in his words without too much analysis and just bathing in them. That said, it can also be a quite frustrating and confusing experience at other times!

      I like Kaz Tanahashi's collection 'Moon in a Dewdrop' to start with as it contains a smallish number of the key writings. After that I would work with a commentary or two with Shohaku Okumura's 'Realizing Genjokoan' being the standout text and Brad Warner's three books related to Shobogenzo which have all been mentioned as a relatively easy read.

      How to Cook Your Life is a favourite of mine too!

      Gassho
      Kokuu
      -sattoday/lah-

      Comment

      • Chishou
        Member
        • Aug 2017
        • 204

        #18
        I also remembered that reading “To meet the true dragon” by Nishijima was very useful in understanding Dogen. Nishijima basically points out that everything Dogen writes refers back to the 3 lines of Genjokoan, comparing the relative and absolute.

        But still, as Kokuu said, it can be hard on the old grey matter when reading the Shobogenzo. I also found listening to someone else reading it aloud useful.

        One of my favour lines from Instructions for the cook is: do wash the rice from the dirt; or dirty from the rice.

        Bows,
        C.
        Sat


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

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        • Horin
          Member
          • Dec 2017
          • 385

          #19
          Abbot Muho wrote some great shobogenzo commentary book, published in janurary 2018, but i think its yet only available in german "Futter für Pferd und Esel" i will do some research if there will be some translation in some kinda way in english.

          Gassho, Ben

          Stlah

          Comment

          • Wadavis
            Member
            • Apr 2018
            • 13

            #20
            Hello,
            I agree with the brad warner comment. I personally found them down to earth and easy to read.
            Gassho
            Sat

            Comment

            • Jakuden
              Member
              • Jun 2015
              • 6141

              #21
              Yes I have not read the second one yet, but "Don't Be a Jerk" was really good!

              Gassho,
              Jakuden
              SatToday/LAH

              Comment

              • Genjun
                Member
                • May 2018
                • 18

                #22
                I am always surprised that so few people mention How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook. It includes a few essays that really bring Dogen's approach home.

                Sat today.

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 41067

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Wadavis
                  Hello,
                  I agree with the brad warner comment. I personally found them down to earth and easy to read.
                  Gassho
                  Sat
                  Yes, I didn't mean to say that the two books ... especially the first one ... are not really good. They are.

                  Let's see if I just mess up Dogen more with my little attempt.

                  Gassho, Jundo

                  SatTodayLAH
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 41067

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Genjun
                    I am always surprised that so few people mention How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook. It includes a few essays that really bring Dogen's approach home.

                    Sat today.
                    It has been awhile since I had a look. I will do so today! (Still on summer vacation, so some time ).

                    Gassho, Jundo

                    STLah
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 41067

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Genjun
                      I am always surprised that so few people mention How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook. It includes a few essays that really bring Dogen's approach home.

                      Sat today.
                      Hi Genjun,

                      I want to say THANK YOU for reminding us of Prof. Cook's book. I spend a few hours this afternoon with his Introduction and short essays (first 50 pages or so) before his translations. I had not read the book since 15 years ago. It really is good. I cannot attest for the translations themselves, as I have not looked that closely. I think they are solid, if I remember correctly (they are not that widely quoted compared to Nishijima, Tanahashi and others). However, the short essays explaining Dogen's teachings on aspects of practice are excellent. So much so, that I will move the book to highly recommended for folks new to Dogen and Soto Practice on our Sangha reading list.

                      So good, that I am considering making it a future selection in our book club.

                      Hi, The following is a recommended book list for our Sangha. It covers a variety of works on Zen, life, “Just Sitting” Shikantaza Zazen, Master Dogen and Buddhism in general. Thank you to all who provided input, and the list is still open to new suggestions and additions. Please email or PM me (Jundo) with any


                      I feel he had a superb understanding of Dogen and a great ability to explain the same in relatively easy to understand terms. If there is one comment on the book, it is that he touches only on selected topics about Dogen, although the most important (such as "practice enlightenment" and the ordinary as sacred). Wonderful.

                      Yes, for anyone interested in the "best place to start with Dogen," this is one of the best (the Taigen Dan Leighton books mentioned, and Okumura Roshi's Genjo Koan are also indispensible). Lovely.

                      I will also look at Cook's other book, Sounds of Valley Streams: Enlightenment in Dogen's Zen Translation of Nine Essays From Shobogenzo, to see if it is as good.

                      I am sorry to report that Prof. Cook passed away from this visible world in 2006.

                      I can also recommend enthusiastically his treatment of "Hua-Yan" (Flower Garland) Buddhism, which had such an important influence on Dogen and other Zen masters. In Hua-yan understanding, Prof. Cook has passed away yet gone no place at all.

                      "Hua Yen Buddhism: The Jewel Net of Indra"


                      Gassho, Jundo

                      STLah
                      Last edited by Jundo; 08-27-2018, 11:49 PM.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Wadavis
                        Member
                        • Apr 2018
                        • 13

                        #26
                        When will your work be available? Where would I be able to view it? I would really enjoy that ��
                        Gassho, Wayne.
                        Sat

                        Comment

                        • Ryumon
                          Member
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 1820

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Genjun
                          I am always surprised that so few people mention How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook.
                          Seconded. I haven't read it in a while, but my copy is marked up with little stickers I use to highlight patty sentences. And I see that Jundo Roshi has concurred that it is an excellent book.

                          Like Instructions for the Cook, it is short, and is about more than just oxen.

                          Gasshox,

                          Kirk
                          I know nothing.

                          Comment

                          • tlsk
                            Member
                            • May 2017
                            • 37

                            #28
                            Quick update: I’m now a little over a third of the way through Realizing Genjokoan, and I couldn’t be more impressed. Truly wonderful book. Thanks for the recommendation!


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                            a bee / staggers out / of the peony.
                            -matsuo basho

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 41067

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Jundo
                              Hi Genjun,

                              I want to say THANK YOU for reminding us of Prof. Cook's book. I spend a few hours this afternoon with his Introduction and short essays (first 50 pages or so) before his translations. I had not read the book since 15 years ago. It really is good. I cannot attest for the translations themselves, as I have not looked that closely. I think they are solid, if I remember correctly (they are not that widely quoted compared to Nishijima, Tanahashi and others). However, the short essays explaining Dogen's teachings on aspects of practice are excellent. So much so, that I will move the book to highly recommended for folks new to Dogen and Soto Practice on our Sangha reading list.

                              So good, that I am considering making it a future selection in our book club.

                              Hi, The following is a recommended book list for our Sangha. It covers a variety of works on Zen, life, “Just Sitting” Shikantaza Zazen, Master Dogen and Buddhism in general. Thank you to all who provided input, and the list is still open to new suggestions and additions. Please email or PM me (Jundo) with any


                              I feel he had a superb understanding of Dogen and a great ability to explain the same in relatively easy to understand terms. If there is one comment on the book, it is that he touches only on selected topics about Dogen, although the most important (such as "practice enlightenment" and the ordinary as sacred). Wonderful.

                              Yes, for anyone interested in the "best place to start with Dogen," this is one of the best (the Taigen Dan Leighton books mentioned, and Okumura Roshi's Genjo Koan are also indispensible). Lovely.
                              So, I spent the last couple of days with Dr. Cook's other book of Shobogenzo translations, "Sounds of Valley Streams," his sequel to the above book. It also contains about 60 pages of very fine introductory essays on Dogen's teachings. I also had not read it for many years. Very good (I quibbled at one small part where I though Dr. Cook emphasized a little too much "acting without thinking," but 98.9% right on).

                              Sounds of Valley Streams is a study of Zen Buddhist enlightenment in nine chapters of Shōbōgenzō Dōgen. Francis H. Cook has translated the nine chapters and has preceded them with four chapters of discussion. These essays show Dōgen bringing his religious intensity, philosophical depth, and poetic power to bear on a number of different facets of enlightenment. Using striking images and poetical expressions such as "one bright pearl," "dragon song," "beyond Buddha," and "a painting of a rice cake,"Dōgen explores such fundamental matters as the relationship between enlightenment and compassion, the dynamic nature of the enlightened life, the need to go beyond enlightenment, the nature of illusion and enlighten-ment, and what it is like to live the awakened life.The centerpiece of the translation is Genjōkōan ("Manifesting Absolute Reality"). It is a manifesto of the Zen life in which Dōgen proclaims the religious insight that stands at the core of everything he wrote subsequently. Cook's translation of Genjōkōan is as accurate as possible, faithful to the original, and readable.


                              So, to summarize, I feel that Okumura's Genjo Koan, and the Taigen Leighton books on "Dogen and the Lotus Sutra" are the best serious introductions to Shobogenzo, Dogen's perspectives and wild writing style. (Of course, until my books are published! `Probably even after. ). But Dr. Cooks's two books would be an excellent follow-up. Read after that the two rather heavy books by Hee-Jin Kim which I mention in my "How to Read Dogen" posts above, if you really want to dive into the thicket. Read Brad's great and artful first book if you want a laugh and learn at the same time, with some modern insights. Then finish up with Okumura Roshi's masterful recent commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra," which is just the finest Dogen book I have ever read, but I recommend it for folks who already know Dogen a bit. Uchiyama Roshi's "Instructions for the Cook" commentary is good for anyone at any time.

                              Gassho, J

                              STLah
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                              Comment

                              • Sekiyuu
                                Member
                                • Apr 2018
                                • 203

                                #30
                                I just wanted to second "Don't Be a Jerk" and "It Came From Beyond Zen". There is a lot of socio-linguistic context in Shobogenzo that flies over our heads because we aren't living in medieval Japan, a lot of analogies and references which the intended audience would understand but we don't. Brad also provides a tone that is very casual and relatable, reminding us to not take things too seriously.

                                On a similar note, among many others one of my favourite chapters of Shobogenzo is "Senjou" or "On Washing Yourself Clean" or more directly "How to use the bathroom". It's a reminder that even our most mundane moments are practice.

                                My favourite chapter of all is Uji, or "Being-Time", for some reason I just find it really easy to understand and it jives quite a bit with modern scientific understanding of "space-time", just like how "Mountains and Waters" makes a lot more sense to someone who understands plate tectonics though Dogen likely didn't.

                                _/\_
                                Kenny
                                Sat Today

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