Thoughts on Susan Moon’s talk

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  • Kokuu
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 6945

    Thoughts on Susan Moon’s talk

    Dear all

    Sadly, I was not able to sit with you all live but Susan’s talk spoke to me deeply at a number of points when I listened today. There were also so many good questions and wise advice from members of the sangha. The remarks on acceptance and adaptation felt especially pertinent at this moment.

    My illness has recently entered a more difficult phase which may, although unlikely, last a day, or may continue for weeks, months or years with fluctuations in pain, health and capacity to perform basic tasks. I have to crawl to the bathroom and can only sit for short periods, certainly not long enough for zazen. There is definitely a lot of grief around that and I find the acceptance takes time and is punctuated by feelings of loss, frustration and even anger. It is often hard to accept that things are okay just this moment just as they are with nothing left out yet how could it be otherwise?

    Asking for help is so important and gives others the opportunity to practice kindness and generosity. One of my neighbours was here today to put my groceries away for me and another watered my plants. We do what we can for others when we can and should be grateful recipients of being taken care of when we need to. Asking for help is a time we can put pride aside and enjoy the connectedness of one human being doing something for another.

    As Susan said, in conditions such as depression zazen may not be the practice that is needed. I have heard both experienced meditators and therapists suggest that when the mind is full of dark thoughts, sitting alone with them can be counterproductive. We think of zazen as letting the thoughts arise and fall away by themselves but Susan was correct that they can just stay or else come so thick and fast there is no respite. Although I have not experienced depression I have had times when the physical pain or amount of emotional pain is too much to sit with. At these time we can let our practice take another course and if all you can do is light incense and chant The Heart Sutra, do that instead. Shorter periods of sitting are also fine.

    However young or well we are, eventually the impermanence of the body will (barring sudden death) become our practice or at least a part of it. As it says in the Pali Canon:

    I am of the nature to grow old;
    There is no way to escape growing old.
    I am of the nature to have ill health;
    There is no way to escape having ill health.
    I am of the nature to die;
    There is no way to escape death.
    All that is dear to me and everyone I love are of the nature of change;
    There is no way to escape being separated from them.



    These thoughts are not those of a priest-in-training but from someone who has sat with chronic illness for over two decades now.

    Thank you all for your practice. May you have grace when dealing with the difficulties of the body and mind, and when caring for others going through hard times themselves.

    Deep bows
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
  • Mp

    #2
    Thank you for this Kokuu ... lovely!

    I also liked what you had to say about asking for help or allowing help ...

    Asking for help is so important and gives others the opportunity to practice kindness and generosity.
    The interconnectedness of all things comes in so many ways and this truly is one of them, so thank you for this. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

    Comment

    • lotus-of-the-mtn
      Member
      • Aug 2018
      • 42

      #3
      Your analysis here rings very true for me. As someone who had a multitude of mental health diagnoses, including massive depression disorder and bipolar type two, I've had to come directly in contact with letting others help. I willingly go to therapy, but it's hard to let go of the pride or feeling of being a burden when those near me try to help.

      I haven't had an episode in which I attempted to sit zazen during a low period. I can say, though, that it was a recent brush with attempted suicide and five days in a crisis house that I was able to reconnect with my buddhist practice. My mental health is my primary form of suffering, and is also apart of my practice. I have made marked improvements in a number of areas in a short period of time but there is more of course.

      I relate to you, my friend. We have our own unique form of suffering but I feel for you, deeply. You have given me something important to ponder.

      Metta to you and all beings.
      Gassho
      Tamber
      satlah

      Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

      Comment

      • lorax
        Member
        • Jun 2008
        • 381

        #4
        Thank you Kokuu, still having trouble with Susan's teaching. Your perspective has helped. Keep sitting with it.

        SAT TODAY
        Shozan

        Comment

        • Kyonin
          Dharma Transmitted Priest
          • Oct 2010
          • 6751

          #5
          Thank you Kokuu.

          Gassho,

          Kyonin
          Sat/LAH
          Hondō Kyōnin
          奔道 協忍

          Comment

          • Tairin
            Member
            • Feb 2016
            • 2934

            #6
            Wow Kokuu. I've known about your health issues just by virtue of being a member here but I don't recall ever reading the details before. I am very sorry to read this. It touched me deeply. Thank you for your practice and much metta to you.

            I know many of our members struggle. Metta to all of you as well.


            Tairin
            Sat today
            泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 41067

              #7
              Kokuu's illness is his monastery. It is where he trains to teach us.

              Gassho, J

              STLah
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • Meian
                Member
                • Apr 2015
                • 1720

                #8
                Kokuu, Lotus, Jundo, all

                Thank you so much for being so open about your struggles. It is posts like these that enable me to open up as well, especially on subjects that I never discuss, for personal reasons ..... mostly due to stigma and my own fears.

                I have not watched the talk ... I probably should. I have fought this battle for .... too many years. It runs in my family, unfortunately.

                This is a very difficult subject for me to write about, because at least where I am, the stigma against mental illness, depression, suicidal ideation, etc., is very strong. People don't discuss it, don't want to know, it doesn't exist, even though it's in their midst.

                For me it started in my adolescence. When I tried to seek help, things went wrong. A few therapists were helpful, but for various reasons, I was not able to continue seeing them. Medications backfired, talk therapy helped. I did try to reach out again recently, but was turned away (no reason was given, the therapists simply declined -- my insurance company actually apologized to me).

                Depression is a known hallmark of fibromyalgia and lupus, but major depression and bipolar also run in my family for generations. I've battled recurring depression throughout my life, and have walked too closely with suicidal ideation ..... let's just say I know my own warning signs because most people don't want to know (I've learned this the hard way). For all the PSAs given in social media, tv, print, radio -- so many don't want to know. I won't touch the why's on that. There are many reasons. In the US, this is an epidemic.

                So I've learned to know when I'm getting too close to the edge, and I do agree -- I avoid zazen and similar practices during this time, because when I am near that cliff, I start making plans. When I am in this state, I've learned that what helps me is to force myself to reach out -- I look for causes or activities that I can contribute to, participate in, something that makes me interact with people, to be useful in some way. When I am making plans and gathering supplies, that's when I'm isolating and going in a bad direction -- I'm a hyper-perfectionist person who plans everything out, even when I'm so deep in depression that I decide on a date.

                Ultimately what usually pulls me back from the edge is thinking of my kids. Depression truly makes no sense .......

                I've also been in contact with others who were in a similar situation and I talked with them for hours until they backed away from that cliff. It's just that I usually have to talk myself down also.

                Since the mental health system and I haven't gotten along too well, and I've made a science of knowing my own brain and biochemistry rather well at this point in my life -- I also have come to know when zazen is helpful for me, and when to avoid it. Sometimes it helps me to sit zazen in the midst of chaos. Sometimes it would leave me stranded in a void of darkness and I'd be left alone with my plans on a dangerous road.

                Thank you .... for bringing this issue out in the open. For putting it in perspective. For making it "okay" to discuss, without reprisal. That being said, I do apologize if my post is too graphic or personal.

                gassho
                kim
                st
                鏡道 |​ Kyodo (Meian) | "Mirror of the Way"
                visiting Unsui
                Nothing I say is a teaching, it's just my own opinion.

                Comment

                • Shoka
                  Member
                  • May 2014
                  • 2370

                  #9
                  Kokuu,

                  Thank you so much for your perspective.

                  However young or well we are, eventually the impermanence of the body will (barring sudden death) become our practice or at least a part of it.
                  I think this is such a valid point. One thing that struck me while listen to Susan was the fact that no matter your age, the four steps she outlined are a valuable way of practicing even with just daily changes in to your practice.

                  For the last year I have been resisting changing how I sit, even through the problem has persisted and worsened, making sitting for more than 10 mins painful. Logically I know better, I know the body changes over time. But for some reason giving in and saying "I can't sit like this anymore" felt like I was giving up on my body. It will probably still take me a few more weeks to let it sink in enough to make a change of position, but I guess that is part of the process of acceptance.


                  Kim,

                  Thank you so very much for sharing your experience.

                  I have several people in my life who struggle with depression, bi-polar, suicide, etc. And even after years of supporting them, it is always surprises to me how long they wait to seek help, or how apologetic they are after having unloaded. But I know after years of being dismissed, told to "be happy" or "get off their pitty-pot"; opening up isn't something they do until almost the bottom.

                  Originally posted by allwhowander
                  Since the mental health system and I haven't gotten along too well, and I've made a science of knowing my own brain and biochemistry rather well at this point in my life -- I also have come to know when zazen is helpful for me, and when to avoid it. Sometimes it helps me to sit zazen in the midst of chaos. Sometimes it would leave me stranded in a void of darkness and I'd be left alone with my plans on a dangerous road.
                  One of my friends is the same way, he knows when things are starting to spiral, and then he has to decide if it's time to take a break and be quiet or run away and be extra active in the world to get through it.

                  So much metta to you, and hugs for sharing.

                  Gassho,

                  Shoka
                  sattoday

                  Comment

                  • Joyo

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jundo
                    Kokuu's illness is his monastery. It is where he trains to teach us.

                    Gassho, J

                    STLah
                    Well said, so true. Kokuu, you continue to inspire us and teach us here at Treeleaf. Thank you for sharing.

                    Gassho,
                    Joyo
                    sat today/lah

                    Comment

                    • Jika
                      Member
                      • Jun 2014
                      • 1337

                      #11
                      Kokuu,

                      your post convinced me to watch the talk.
                      I would not have watched otherwise ('Do I really want to hear things will get even worse the older I get??'), so you gave me the opportunity not to miss Susan's wonderful talk.

                      Her honesty and openness were very refreshing to me.
                      I was struck by her sentence 'As long as I can be loving. I'm sure that can't be taken away from me.'.
                      I'm not sure I agree (when seeing people with dementia, are they loving? How can we know? But then, in deep dementia, is there an 'I' to be loving?).
                      But I realize that I am going the wrong way, letting my illness strengthen thoughts of the self ('What can I do? What do I need? What/who is not good for Me?').
                      To me it often feels as if I have no choice, as if I naturally become this struggling, bitter, withdrawn something I do neither like nor want to be.

                      But obviously, there is a choice, and maybe this is practice too.

                      Gassho,
                      Jika
                      sattoday
                      治 Ji
                      花 Ka

                      Comment

                      • Doshin
                        Member
                        • May 2015
                        • 2634

                        #12
                        Metta to all for the challenges you address each day. Thank you for sharing so we may learn. Thank you for providing an example of how when you fall down you get up, learn, and move forward on the path. Thank you for the teachings.

                        Gassho
                        Doshin
                        St

                        Comment

                        • Beldame
                          Member
                          • Jan 2018
                          • 38

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jika

                          I was struck by her sentence 'As long as I can be loving. I'm sure that can't be taken away from me.'.
                          I'm not sure I agree (when seeing people with dementia, are they loving? How can we know? But then, in deep dementia, is there an 'I' to be loving?).
                          But I realize that I am going the wrong way, letting my illness strengthen thoughts of the self...

                          Gassho,
                          Jika
                          sattoday
                          I had very much the same question listening to the talk as I thought about people I have known suffering dementia. Perhaps even the ability to love can be taken away...or lost. It's a very radical lesson in impermanence and not-knowing.

                          Thanks and metta to everyone who has posted so far. These are hard things to discuss ...

                          Gassho--
                          Deborah

                          SatToday

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 41067

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Beldame
                            I had very much the same question listening to the talk as I thought about people I have known suffering dementia. Perhaps even the ability to love can be taken away...or lost. It's a very radical lesson in impermanence and not-knowing.

                            Thanks and metta to everyone who has posted so far. These are hard things to discuss ...

                            Gassho--
                            Deborah

                            SatToday
                            I don't know. My wife and I volunteered in a hospice for many years. Family members and friends could even feel love from their loved one who was in a deep coma most times. You just know it is there.

                            Gassho, J

                            STLah
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • Meitou
                              Member
                              • Feb 2017
                              • 1656

                              #15
                              Beautiful words Kokuu, you are always inspiring, a great teacher and an example to us all.

                              Deep bows
                              Meitou
                              satwithyoualltoday/lah

                              Ps I officially became an old age pensioner last November and turn 65 next week, which seems hilarious to me, but so be it. Old age isn't so terrible, you do kind of grow into it, and actually embracing cantankerous codgership can be very liberating, it just needs the right mindset
                              命 Mei - life
                              島 Tou - island

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