Shikantaza question

[Horin]

Hello. Today after sitting i am a bit confused.. questions arise after shikantaza: sawaki roshi and uchiyama roshi taught that we simply sit with our whole being, when thoughts come up we should return to sitting/reality (kakusoku)..for me it sounds like cutting somehow off the arising thoughts.
Okumura taught: let thoughts come and go dont do anything..if you get lost in it come back to posture..
Same is the silent illumination, the chan pendant to shikantaza: just sit and be aware what comes up. Dont touch what arises.. come back to sitting when get lost..
(Links/sources at the bottom line)

Is okumuras teaching really different to sawaki and uchiyama? Whats "right"? Or is both the same but in different words??
Today there were so many thoughts, like no space in between.. like a train of them or a monologue, without interacting with them but the effort to cut them of seems not right.. its still a doing..
in other times its like single thoughts come and go and there is question at all. They arise and fade..space...arise...fade..space.
Thats what makes me insecure. May you guys, especially jundo, have some words/ideas/recommendation?
I cannot be sure how to understand the treeleaf instructions pdf as well, i understand it more like sawaki/uchiyama.
Gassho,
Ben

St/lah

Sources:


silent illumination:

https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/silent-illumination/

Uchiyama on zazen:

http://www.thedailyzen.org/2015/11/09/on-zazen-by-uchiyama-kasho-roshi/

Okumura on zazen:

http://antaiji.org/archives/eng/okumura-zazen.shtml

[Mp]

Hello. Today after sitting i am a bit confused.. questions arise after shikantaza: sawaki roshi and uchiyama roshi taught that we simply sit with our whole being, when thoughts come up we should return to sitting/reality (kakusoku)..for me it sounds like cutting somehow off the arising thoughts.
Okumura taught: let thoughts come and go dont do anything..if you get lost in it come back to posture..
Same is the silent illumination, the chan pendant to shikantaza: just sit and be aware what comes up. Dont touch what arises.. come back to sitting when get lost..
(Links/sources at the bottom line)

Is okumuras teaching really different to sawaki and uchiyama? Whats "right"? Or is both the same but in different words??
Today there were so many thoughts, like no space in between.. like a train of them or a monologue, without interacting with them but the effort to cut them of seems not right.. its still a doing..
in other times its like single thoughts come and go and there is question at all. They arise and fade..space...arise...fade..space.
Thats what makes me insecure. May you guys, especially jundo, have some words/ideas/recommendation?
I cannot be sure how to understand the treeleaf instructions pdf as well, i understand it more like sawaki/uchiyama.
Gassho,
Ben

St/lah

Sources:


silent illumination:

https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/silent-illumination/

Uchiyama on zazen:

http://www.thedailyzen.org/2015/11/09/on-zazen-by-uchiyama-kasho-roshi/

Okumura on zazen:
http://antaiji.org/archives/eng/okumura-zazen.shtml

Hey Ben,

Well my take is it is all the same, just different choice of words. We each have our own way of expression this practice. In time you too will find what calls to you. Even Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers had their own ways of expression their understanding. =)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Horin]

Thank you shingen, but how to deal with this load of thoughts (clouds) without space (blue sky) between? Or is the blue sky just aware of this load of clouds playing there theatre? Is this the same kakusoku as dropping them? No need to vanish the sky moment by moment??

[Mp]

Thank you shingen, but how to deal with this load of thoughts (clouds) without space (blue sky) between? Or is the blue sky just aware of this load of clouds playing there theatre? Is this the same kakusoku as dropping them? No need to vanish the sky moment by moment??

Hey Ben,

The blue sky is always there, the clouds are always there too ... just like birds that fly in the sky, allow them to just fly. So let's think of it this way ... imagine you are lying on the grass actually looking at the big blue sky. You see birds flying, planes, and clouds floating by. You can see them coming without having to look directly at them. The same can be said when they pass by. You are aware that they are there, but your eyes are not following them, so to your mind is not attached to or chasing after them. If a cloud comes and goes, allow it to do so. If you find your mind is stuck on that cloud that came 10mins ago, bring yourself back to that very present moment (this can be done by focusing on the breath or the posture).

This goes for both the fluffy white clouds (happy thoughts) and the dark stormy ones (bad thoughts). When we let them just be and float on by as they do, they don't actually go anywhere. The blue sky is always there, just as the clouds are always there. Our practice doesn't dissolve them or make them go away ... our practice teaches us that we can live with in a calm peaceful way even when the clouds are floating around.

Shikantaza is a life long practice ... why? Because the mind never stops, life never stops. There are moments where you can be still and at peace with a busy mind and then at others times be distracted by what life has to offer. All we can do is just sit, just be present with life and allow it to unfold. If it unfolds with a busy mind, let it be that. If it unfolds with a empty mind, let it be that too.

Does that make sense? =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Chishou]

I think of it like this: the brain is as organ and its job is to take in, process and put out information. To stop that would be stupid.

The stomach also being an organ takes in, processes and put out food-stuff. To stop that would also be chaotic and stupid.

Allow them both to do their jobs and just observe. Do not try to control or influence either.

Deep bows,
Chishou
Sat.


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[Jundo]

Hi Ben,

What Shingen said.

Let me just add a couple of observations about those cloudy and stormy days.

First, various teachers say to come back to some center point, be it the posture, sitting itself, the breath as it enters and exists or (for those who can, I recommend this) simply "open spacious awareness" centered on the whole world and no one thing at all. It is all the same, tomatoes and tomatoes. For folks who need a firmer anchor, I encourage them to find the breath where it enters and exists the body and flow with the in and out (although forget "inside" and "outside" too, for inside is outside, outside is just inside).

Just observe the clouds of thoughts and emotions, like a show in the mind. Imagine a thought comes into the mind about your boss at work whom you hate, and the project tomorrow which you dread. Usually we get pulled into tangles of thought about it, wallow and ruminate. One thought leads to another. Now in Zazen, instead of wallowing, a thought of boss comes ... let boss be the boss, don't grab on or stir up the thought more. Feeling of hate comes ... let it be hate, don't grab on or stir up the emotion more. Same with tomorrow, dread, Etc. Let the dread be the dread.

"Cutting off" is really just returning to "not doing." Grabbing on, wallowing, stirring up, ruminating is "doing." For example, if we look at thoughts and emotions as hitting oneself in the head with a hammer (I did that in an old video), that is a "doing." Realizing you are doing so, and opening the hand to let go of the hammer is stopping to do something. Now "not hitting yourself" is not a "doing!" It is not doing. Returning to the breath, posture etc. is simply a means to open the fingers and let the hammer drop away.

Our way of Shikantaza is not to be completely free of thoughts all the time. Thoughts and emotions will come and go, and we just don't engage. There will be clear sky moments, clouds of thought/emotion moments ... as they say in police movies, "don't engage the suspect."

Shikantaza is about equanimity, having a mind like a mirror which does not judge, ruminate or reject what appears in the mirror. Allow your thoughts and emotions to be as passing things appearing and disappearing in the mirror.

But what about those days in which the clouds won't stop, the hammer seems to keep going?

First, a funny thing. When you just allow even the clouds and storms, they may settle just because you let them be. On some days, you might find things so stormy and overcast that not an inch of blue sky can be seen. On those days, just stay with the breath. Let the storm rage but, this time, do so almost as an observer without participating in the storm. Just follow the breath as the rain pours down. Allow and accept, and consider the emotions as only passing weather. If you do so, you may be surprised to find that the rain begins to lift, the clouds lighten and some blue sky peaks through. Because you are not making it worse by engaging, not pouring extra gasoline on the emotions and just letting them burn, you may find that they lose power on their own.

But what to do if they don't clear even then: Trust and Wisdom. Don’t think that Zazen is only “successful” when one actually feels peaceful, blissful or joyful, with the birds singing. Rather, consider the experience of Zazen as something like the weather which may change each day … some days sunny, some days rainy, some days stormy, some days clear as a blue sky without a cloud to be seen. Sit with equanimity toward all of it, even the stormy days. Trust that behind and right through all clouds the open sky is always present, seen or unseen. The moon is always shining, seen or unseen. It is a kind of faith that the sky is always still there, and the moon shining, even though temporarily hidden behind the clouds.

We then find that the clouds were just the sky all along, the sky is the sky with or without clouds, the moon is always shining seen or unseen. Thus, we come to see the moon and clouds at once as one. Moon is there when there are no clouds, moon is there when there are only clouds and no moon seen, moon is sometimes shining through the clouds lighting them up (the best times in Zazen) ... but the moon is always.

I hope I did not muddle things more.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Horin]

Thank you for your answers. Uchiyama roshi used the analogy of the tv you switch off to vanish thoughts and just leaving the white wall. That seems like controlling or forcing something. It is kind of more easy to me because i wont get lost so much in thoughts but anyways it dont feel right. Its like an effort to chase them out and makes some urge to stay empty.
Not touching thoughts, leave them alone while be aware of them is quite hard because it ia not satisfiying.. but thats the point: learning not to want/force some state and acceptance for what is right here now, right? instead be aware of the urge to do something when things arise and leave it alone..
Thank you very much!

[Jinyo]

Hi Ben,

What Shingen said.

Let me just add a couple of observations about those cloudy and stormy days.

First, various teachers say to come back to some center point, be it the posture, sitting itself, the breath as it enters and exists or (for those who can, I recommend this) simply "open spacious awareness" centered on the whole world and no one thing at all. It is all the same, tomatoes and tomatoes. For folks who need a firmer anchor, I encourage them to find the breath where it enters and exists the body and flow with the in and out (although forget "inside" and "outside" too, for inside is outside, outside is just inside).

Just observe the clouds of thoughts and emotions, like a show in the mind. Imagine a thought comes into the mind about your boss at work whom you hate, and the project tomorrow which you dread. Usually we get pulled into tangles of thought about it, wallow and ruminate. One thought leads to another. Now in Zazen, instead of wallowing, a thought of boss comes ... let boss be the boss, don't grab on or stir up the thought more. Feeling of hate comes ... let it be hate, don't grab on or stir up the emotion more. Same with tomorrow, dread, Etc. Let the dread be the dread.

"Cutting off" is really just returning to "not doing." Grabbing on, wallowing, stirring up, ruminating is "doing." For example, if we look at thoughts and emotions as hitting oneself in the head with a hammer (I did that in an old video), that is a "doing." Realizing you are doing so, and opening the hand to let go of the hammer is stopping to do something. Now "not hitting yourself" is not a "doing!" It is not doing. Returning to the breath, posture etc. is simply a means to open the fingers and let the hammer drop away.

Our way of Shikantaza is not to be completely free of thoughts all the time. Thoughts and emotions will come and go, and we just don't engage. There will be clear sky moments, clouds of thought/emotion moments ... as they say in police movies, "don't engage the suspect."

Shikantaza is about equanimity, having a mind like a mirror which does not judge, ruminate or reject what appears in the mirror. Allow your thoughts and emotions to be as passing things appearing and disappearing in the mirror.

But what about those days in which the clouds won't stop, the hammer seems to keep going?

First, a funny thing. When you just allow even the clouds and storms, they may settle just because you let them be. On some days, you might find things so stormy and overcast that not an inch of blue sky can be seen. On those days, just stay with the breath. Let the storm rage but, this time, do so almost as an observer without participating in the storm. Just follow the breath as the rain pours down. Allow and accept, and consider the emotions as only passing weather. If you do so, you may be surprised to find that the rain begins to lift, the clouds lighten and some blue sky peaks through. Because you are not making it worse by engaging, not pouring extra gasoline on the emotions and just letting them burn, you may find that they lose power on their own.

But what to do if they don't clear even then: Trust and Wisdom. Don’t think that Zazen is only “successful” when one actually feels peaceful, blissful or joyful, with the birds singing. Rather, consider the experience of Zazen as something like the weather which may change each day … some days sunny, some days rainy, some days stormy, some days clear as a blue sky without a cloud to be seen. Sit with equanimity toward all of it, even the stormy days. Trust that behind and right through all clouds the open sky is always present, seen or unseen. The moon is always shining, seen or unseen. It is a kind of faith that the sky is always still there, and the moon shining, even though temporarily hidden behind the clouds.

We then find that the clouds were just the sky all along, the sky is the sky with or without clouds, the moon is always shining seen or unseen. Thus, we come to see the moon and clouds at once as one. Moon is there when there are no clouds, moon is there when there are only clouds and no moon seen, moon is sometimes shining through the clouds lighting them up (the best times in Zazen) ... but the moon is always.

I hope I did not muddle things more.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

The weather is such a useful analogy - nature has a lot to teach us humans!
Wrote this a few weeks ago - pretty much sums up zazen for me when I find myself overthinking and 'judging' my practice.

The Weather

Do not think Zen
is the gift of a perfect life,
it actually reveals all of the imperfections,
teaching that the mind,
feelings, emotions, judgments, are like the weather;
today sunshine - tomorrow rain and clouds.
It’s foolish to think we can change the weather
just because we don’t like it.

Yet we can accept and still prepare.
So here is a warm coat and a waterproof,
and here is a sun hat and here a pair of boots or maybe sandals;
who knows - it’s all an adventure!
Which doesn’t mean to be passive, it means to be wise.
It’s up to us if we want to keep our feet dry
or to splash in puddles with bare toes.
We do have a choice.

Zen teaches to receive, to observe,
to make a calm decision or a calm non decision,
because sometimes it is expedient to let things just be.
By all means prepare for a tsunami
understand how to create safety and shelter,
but most weather is harmless.
So it is with emotions, thoughts and feelings.

Enjoy the weather of your life.
Opposites are complementary: light/shade: cold/warm: wet/dry.
Most of all don’t try to be perfect; don’t try to be spiritual,
accept who you are - with a bit of tweaking you’ll be fine!
And extend that generosity to others as they deal with the weather of their lives,
Smile, be warm and forgive: nurture yourself and those around you,
love this universe - your time here is short,
because like the weather we are also just passing through.

Gassho

Jinyo

ST (in very hot weather - heatwave continues in the UK !)

[Jundo]

Jinyo, a lovely and wise poem. Thank you.

Ben, I feel that I can clarify something you wrote ...

Uchiyama roshi used the analogy of the tv you switch off to vanish thoughts and just leaving the white wall. That seems like controlling or forcing something. It is kind of more easy to me because i wont get lost so much in thoughts but anyways it dont feel right. Its like an effort to chase them out and makes some urge to stay empty.

I don't believe that he is saying to actively "switch off" the t.v. Rather, it is more like one is having the t.v. in the room, or playing in one's mind, and one pays it absolutely no attention. It just plays and plays its news and infomertials, and you don't get drawn in, don't care and "pay it no nevermind" (a lovely Americanism). In that case, the t.v. might as well not be there, it vanishes. It is "like" the t.v. is not there or turned off. Again, it is the opposite of doing something, but rather, is radically leaving be and not getting pulled in.

He says ...

Once you realize that you are thinking when you are supposed to be doing nothing, and return to zazen, the thoughts which appeared as clearly before you as if they were pictures on the T.V. screen, disappear as suddenly as if you had switched off the T.V. Only the wall is left in front of you.

For an instant… this is it. This is zazen. Yet again thoughts arise by themselves. Again you return to zazen and they disappear. We simply repeat this; this is called kakusoku (awareness of Reality). The most important point is to repeat this kakusoku billions of times. This is how we should practice zazen.

Repeat and repeat and repeat ... sky and clouds, clouds and sky, clouds and clouds, sky and sky ... yet the sky is always present seen or unseen.

Not touching thoughts, leave them alone while be aware of them is quite hard because it ia not satisfiying.. but thats the point: learning not to want/force some state and acceptance for what is right here now, right? instead be aware of the urge to do something when things arise and leave it alone..

This is the funny aspect of our practice that you must get.

We are not really just accepting the status quo because we are not wallowing, not ruminating, not getting pulled into the thoughts, not playing along. So, we do open the hand of thought and let go of the thoughts, don't stir them up, don't "engage the suspect."

On the other hand, neither are we actively trying to stop and squelch the thoughts, actively turn off the tv and pull the plug.

Understand? It is doing non doing. Thinking non thinking.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Horin]

Thank you jundo, i understand and can follow your words!!
Gassho
Stlah
Ben

[Tairin]

Hi Ben

It’s a great question. Here is my take. It is impossible to stop the mind from thinking. That is what it does. It is equally impossible to sit there on the cushion and not think. There is no point in concentrating on not thinking. Instead I try to sit in open awareness. When thoughts come I don’t force them to go but instead I simply realize I’ve been lost in thought and bring myself back to the present by going through a little check list (posture good, shoulders relaxed, thumbs not drooped or tense etc). It happens frequently in a sit. Some days it seems like a constant process. On some days where it is just a continuous train of thought I don’t let myself get discouraged. I know that each moment is a fresh new moment to start again


Tairin
Sat today

[Horin]

Tairin, thank you for your words. I will remember your advices if i feel discourageous
Gassho,
Stlah

[Shinshou]

"When you just allow even the clouds and storms, they may settle just because you let them be."

This is my experience. I think, if I'm reading correctly, the weight of your original question seemed to be, "When thoughts come up, should I allow them but remain unattached, or actively stop them?" The eye sees, the ear hears, the mind thinks. How could you stop them? When i first started sitting, I tried to stop thoughts and return to silence. It didn't work. Like an unruly child, the more I told them "no," the quicker and more insistent they came. But if I let them peter out on their own, they settle. To me, when I push away a thought, feeling, or perception, I'm giving it just as much attention as if I embraced it. Instead, I just let it be, and eventually my mind gets tired of that thought and moves on to another, or becomes still - either is fine, I just sit either way. They're like the white wall in front of me: of course it is something and it exists, but it doesn't give me meaning. I don't analyze it or name it or describe it or ignore it or embrace it, it's just a wall. A thought is just a thought. The wonderful thing about allowing thoughts without being engaged by them is it doesn't matter what thoughts they are - worrisome, angelic, demented, uplifting - you can sit regardless.

That's just my experience, and I'm sure others' is different.

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

[Horin]

thank you shinshou i can understand you an agree. All your replies are really precious. Jinyo, your weather poem is really beautiful and true words. Wonderful.
Gassho

Stlah

[Koki]

Hello Jundo,
As I was perusing the forum, shikantaza was on my mind, and I noticed this thread.
Thank you for this teaching.

It reminds me of the waves of the ocean...flowing in, and flowing out.
In the movie Castaway, Tom Hanks said...you never know what might come in on the next wave. In his case, it saved his life.

My wife and I go to Lake Erie from time to time and walk along the beach. She likes to collect small pieces of beach glass which have been "cooked" in the ocean, and are now smooth. She prides herself in finding unique colors. She'll occasionally make pieces of jewelry out of them.

You can walk the same stretch of beach many times, finding whites and greens, an occasional blue. Then, just sitting glistening in the sun is a beautiful RED! It wasn't there all day, but suddenly appears on the beach, brought in on the last wave.

Is shikantanza like that? Or am I all washed up? LOL

Gassho

Frank
Satoday



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