Living By Vow - Origins of Treeleaf's Liturgy

[Seishin]

Not sure if this question should be posted in a more general section but reading this book has been a tremendous help in my understanding of both general Buddhism and Zen in particular - especially Sandokai as I feel I finally getting the Two Truths..

What has struck me is the difference in wording of these different sutras and verses but I understand with so many flavours (no flavours) of Zen, even with Soto Zen how things will never be recorded in the same way, especially when translated into English. Which has got me thinking about our "chants" here at Treeleaf and their origins - now I may be biased but I kinda like the way "our" versions flow and find they all resonate with me.

So I'd be curious to know what are the origins of our current chants ? Have they been "handed down" from Nishijima Roshi or have there been a few moderniszed or westernized tweaks along the way ? Purely out of interest is all.

[Jundo]

Not sure if this question should be posted in a more general section but reading this book has been a tremendous help in my understanding of both general Buddhism and Zen in particular - especially Sandokai as I feel I finally getting the Two Truths..

What has struck me is the difference in wording of these different sutras and verses but I understand with so many flavours (no flavours) of Zen, even with Soto Zen how things will never be recorded in the same way, especially when translated into English. Which has got me thinking about our "chants" here at Treeleaf and their origins - now I may be biased but I kinda like the way "our" versions flow and find they all resonate with me.more

So I'd be curious to know what are the origins of our current chants ? Have they been "handed down" from Nishijima Roshi or have there been a few moderniszed or westernized tweaks along the way ? Purely out of interest is all.

Hi Seishin,

As I recall, because it has now been a dozen years ...

I borrowed most from the Sangha of my mentor, Doshin Mitch Cantor of the White Plum, with whom I had the honor of sitting for several years in Florida. and who showed me so much about Zen Priesthood in the West and managing a Sangha ...

http://sweepingzen.com/mitchell-doshin-cantor-bio/

I made some adjustments and tweeks (for example, adding "Awakened One of Compassion" to explain who is Avolokitesvara Bodhisattva, which is unorthodox as it is not found in other translations). I also like to reduce many rather esoteric, mysterious or magical elements (such as replacing our dedications of "merit" with our "hopes and aspirations.") That is just my personal approach, not standard. Part of our Dedication for Peace is from the Zen Peacemakers Order, to which Doshin also belongs.

Here is why translations into Western languages vary so much: Because they are translations , which can be phrased any number of ways (and the Heart Sutra and many other chants are already Japanese versions of Chinese chants which, themselves, often come from Sanskrit or the like). It is the heart and meaning and sound that counts, not the exact wording so much. There is no standard apart from that.

I forget where I borrowed the Metta Chant we use, but there are some changes. For example, I replaced the usual "May they be happy" with an emphasis on "May they be content and accepting" as fitting a Zenny approach.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

PS - I will move this to the Zen section.

[Meitou]

What a great question and answer, thank you both.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday lah

[Anka]

Thank you for this wonderful information.

The biggest thing that stuck out to me here was the difference in the chants to those I had known from the Korean lineage.

Although the external wording / phrasing is different all chants are pointing to the same thing. Just like all religions and practices are pointing to the same thing. It seems humans simply get caught up in the nuances to much.

James f
Sat

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[Seishin]

Thank you for your explanation and moving the post to a more appropriate and perhaps visible section of the forum.

I know from my experience of learning French, that there are some expressions that are unique to each language making them impossible to translate in an accurate way (I speak English like a Spanish Cow - for example). So interpretation paints many different pictures, which is why the existence of so many versions of the same Sutras or verses do not surprise me. Its like taking a 4 chord Hendrix progression from 2500 years back and not knowing the tune. You can play that same progression in a myriad of styles, tempos and rhythm patterns but the 4 chords are still the same, Hendrix Dharma if you like! Its just the presentation that's different.

At the start of each section I did try chanting the versions presented in the book and most seemed somewhat awkward but that's no different to having a sheet of lyrics and no music! No doubt each are these are just as fluid and flowing as our's here at Treeleaf but its nice to know their origins, so gassho for that.

[Jundo]

Spanish cow? Well, not Hendrix, but a kind of Japanese-Flamenco Heart Sutra ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbo1LbD13J8

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jakuden]

Spanish cow? Well, not Hendrix, but a kind of Japanese-Flamenco Heart Sutra ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbo1LbD13J8

Gassho, J

STLah

This is awesome.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Joyo]

Great question, and explanation from Jundo. Thank you both =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Washin]

Spanish cow? Well, not Hendrix, but a kind of Japanese-Flamenco Heart Sutra ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbo1LbD13J8

Gassho, J

STLah

Wonderful!

Washin
sat/lah

[Seishin]

Spanish cow? Well, not Hendrix, but a kind of Japanese-Flamenco Heart Sutra ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbo1LbD13J8

Gassho, J

STLah

Cool and just 3 chords and a harmonic at the end, so simple. Wondered what happened to the Gypsy Kings. I'll have to jam with that during Ango, when I try to learn the Japanese version this year.

As to the Spanish cow, the French would say of someone "Il parle Français/Anglais comme une vache Espagnole" and have heard this many times in jest when explaining that my French is poor and getting the response that "its better than my English". Its one of those expressions I've never known an equivalent saying in the UK. There a good one regards speaking from ones butt, which kinda goes like "he's passing wind above his navel" which is the polite way of saying it. Ain't language fun.

[Jundo]

Also remember that Buddhist Chants can't "come from" anywhere, neither do they "go to" anywhere.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH