Koans

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  • Shokai
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Mar 2009
    • 6401

    #16
    maybe not even 2 cents
    Hey Coos, That's about 5 cents Canadian; we don't haave pennies anymore

    gassho, Shokai

    stlah
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

    Comment

    • Risho
      Member
      • May 2010
      • 3178

      #17
      Originally posted by aprapti
      in 1960 Karlfried Graf Duerckheim wrote a book: "Der Altag als Uebung" I don't know if it was translated in English, would be something like 'daily life as practice'. some questions have answers.


      Coos
      std
      Boom! That's what I get for trying to be smart

      Gassho,

      Rish
      -sat/lah
      Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

      Comment

      • aprapti
        Member
        • Jun 2017
        • 889

        #18
        Originally posted by Risho
        Boom! That's what I get for trying to be smart

        Gassho,

        Rish
        -sat/lah
        sorry, Rish, did not want to be rude.

        Coos std

        hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

        Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

        Comment

        • aprapti
          Member
          • Jun 2017
          • 889

          #19
          Originally posted by Shokai
          Hey Coos, That's about 5 cents Canadian; we don't haave pennies anymore

          gassho, Shokai

          stlah
          we do everything in euro's now..

          Coos
          std

          hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

          Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

          Comment

          • Risho
            Member
            • May 2010
            • 3178

            #20
            Coos - not rude at all
            Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

            Comment

            • Jishin
              Member
              • Oct 2012
              • 4821

              #21
              Originally posted by aprapti
              in 1960 Karlfried Graf Duerckheim wrote a book: "Der Altag als Uebung" I don't know if it was translated in English, would be something like 'daily life as practice'. some questions have answers.


              Coos
              std
              I always appreciate your input Coos.

              Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 40720

                #22
                Originally posted by Risho
                Sometimes the koans aren't in books but in our lives; sometimes we read something that isn't necessarily a "Zen" book but presents what is very much a koan.

                Who is the qualified teacher who can teach us the koan that is our lives?

                Gassho,

                Rish
                -st/lah

                ps. ok I'm being koany. lol
                I agree with this. They are like poems or songs on the radio, and can have different meanings or aspects that come alive for us at different times, not even necessarily what the poet or song writer himself "meant." In fact, most of the Koans are now known not to be historical events, but literary tropes written centuries after the people supposedly in them were gone, and most of the Koans (like the famous "Does a Dog Have Buddha Nature" MU Koan) have evolved through time. Wonderful book on the history of that Koan alone ...

                Like Cats and Dogs: Contesting the Mu Koan in Zen Buddhism

                In a careful analysis of the historical and rhetorical basis of the literature, Steven Heine demonstrates that the Mu version of the case, preferred by advocates of the key-phrase approach, does not by any means constitute the final word concerning the meaning and significance of the Mu Koan. He shows that another canonical version, which gives both "Yes" and "No" responses, must be taken into account. Like Cats and Dogs offers critical insight and a new theoretical perspective on "the koan of koans."

                ...

                [Heine] is able to raise a number of valuable questions about the history of this text, but there are two primary questions. First, why is this particular response to the question about a dog’s Buddha-nature so predominant (what Heine calls the “Ur Version”), when there are a number of alternative responses to this question in the textual history of Chan Buddhism? In other examples there are affirmative answers to the question, or both affirmative and negative answers, or additional questions and statements concerning the initial question. [End Page 671]

                Second, why has Dahui’s insistence on the authority of Zhaozhou’s Mu come to displace the rich literary heritage of other renowned patriarchs devoted to alternative versions? Dahui’s most notable contribution to kōan practice is his use of the key-phrase or “head-word” method, epitomized in Zhaozhou’s Mu, where the student is told to forget all concerns about the particulars of question-and-answer in the case, and instead simply focus on Mu alone. In this approach, what Heine calls “Emphatic Mu,” the primary power of Zhaozhou’s Mu is in its capacity to block any linguistic entry to realization, so that the student must demonstrate their insight in a direct, nonverbal fashion. Heine contrasts the Emphatic Mu approach to an “Expansive Mu” method where “words perpetuate words” (p. 29). The latter is exemplified in “Dual Version” cases where one finds both affirmative and negative answers to the initial question, thus encouraging original literary responses to reveal and expand the practitioner’s insights. Heine traces the Expansive Mu approach to Hongzhi in the twelfth-century Southern Song, and finds this approach most prominently displayed in the works of the thirteenth-century Japanese Zen master, Eihei Dōgen.

                While Heine’s critical historical study uncovers important omissions and inconsistencies in contemporary scholarship on the Mu kōan, its most significant contribution...

                https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Heine-Cats.pdf
                Anyone who says that one Koan has one approach is trying to force life into a mold. In my belief, the Koans are often misused in that way, and should be seen as living things.

                Gassho, J

                SatTodayLAH
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                Comment

                • Risho
                  Member
                  • May 2010
                  • 3178

                  #23
                  another boom! thank you Jundo

                  Gassho

                  Rish
                  -sat/lah
                  Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

                  Comment

                  • aprapti
                    Member
                    • Jun 2017
                    • 889

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Jundo

                    Anyone who says that one Koan has one approach is trying to force life into a mold. In my belief, the Koans are often misused in that way, and should be seen as living things.
                    you are absolutely right. There is not one answer to a koan. In fact every student has a different answer. In fact, sometimes you get the same koan back later and than you will have an other approach and another answer. That's why you cannot give an answer by the book, like Yoel Hoffmann, the sound of the one hand; 281 koans and there answers.


                    coos

                    std

                    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

                    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

                    Comment

                    • Jinyo
                      Member
                      • Jan 2012
                      • 1957

                      #25
                      Hello there,

                      Bit of a trip down memory lane this week - it's pretty saluatory going back through my old posts (blush!) -but this discussion on the koan
                      Mu might be worth mentioning - regarding the input of others not my own faltering steps.

                      I have been trying to grasp the meaning of Mu for a couple of weeks now. Asking whether a dog has Buddha nature hasn't really helped! :? I'm reading Robert Aitken's 'The Mind of Clover' and he does rather assume that when he writes 'Let Mu breathe Mu' the reader will know what that means. He makes a lot of reference to




                      Willow

                      ST

                      Comment

                      • aprapti
                        Member
                        • Jun 2017
                        • 889

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Jishin
                        I always appreciate your input Coos.

                        Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

                        Thanks Jishin. I still have to get used to this sangha, i am afraid..


                        Coos
                        std

                        hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

                        Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

                        Comment

                        • Jishin
                          Member
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 4821

                          #27
                          Originally posted by willow
                          Hello there,

                          Bit of a trip down memory lane this week - it's pretty saluatory going back through my old posts (blush!) -but this discussion on the koan
                          Mu might be worth mentioning - regarding the input of others not my own faltering steps.

                          I have been trying to grasp the meaning of Mu for a couple of weeks now. Asking whether a dog has Buddha nature hasn't really helped! :? I'm reading Robert Aitken's 'The Mind of Clover' and he does rather assume that when he writes 'Let Mu breathe Mu' the reader will know what that means. He makes a lot of reference to




                          Willow

                          ST
                          Hi Willow,
                          Regarding ‘Essential Writings on Zen's most important Koan'. book about Mu that you mention on the other thread - I read this book many times. It’s always nice to carry Mu in your pocket and pull it out when you need to.

                          Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

                          Comment

                          • Jishin
                            Member
                            • Oct 2012
                            • 4821

                            #28
                            Originally posted by aprapti
                            Thanks Jishin. I still have to get used to this sangha, i am afraid..


                            Coos
                            std
                            Been here for 5 years and still don’t know what I am doing. You seem more on the ball then me. That is no joke. [emoji869]

                            Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

                            Comment

                            • Jinyo
                              Member
                              • Jan 2012
                              • 1957

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Jishin
                              Hi Willow,
                              Regarding ‘Essential Writings on Zen's most important Koan'. book about Mu that you mention on the other thread - I read this book many times. It’s always nice to carry Mu in your pocket and pull it out when you need to.

                              Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
                              Hi Jishin,

                              I never did read very far into the book - I must have another look. Good to hear you enjoyed it.



                              Willow

                              ST

                              Comment

                              • Shinshou
                                Member
                                • May 2017
                                • 251

                                #30
                                Originally posted by willow
                                Hello there,

                                Bit of a trip down memory lane this week - it's pretty saluatory going back through my old posts (blush!) -but this discussion on the koan
                                Mu might be worth mentioning - regarding the input of others not my own faltering steps.

                                I have been trying to grasp the meaning of Mu for a couple of weeks now. Asking whether a dog has Buddha nature hasn't really helped! :? I'm reading Robert Aitken's 'The Mind of Clover' and he does rather assume that when he writes 'Let Mu breathe Mu' the reader will know what that means. He makes a lot of reference to




                                Willow

                                ST
                                Just read through the old thread, and the Nishijima explanation of mu was fantastic. It struck me as akin to when one of my children starts to ask a question that I know is trouble, and I give them a "no"...not that the answer to the question is no, but the whole question is a big NO!

                                Dan
                                Sat today
                                Last edited by Shinshou; 01-11-2018, 06:27 PM.

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