Koans

[Jishin]

Hi,

Some people have a fascination with Koans. They are interesting and there is a lot to learn from them. That said they are also a big waste of time. The best answer to most of them is not to make a Koan where there is none. If you don't pick up a Koan then it is not yours to solve. Just chop wood and fetch water for the benefit of others.

That said, the introductory Koans have to do with mostly the relative and the absolute. The answer to these is pretty standard. Examples are the Mu Koan, the Red Beard Koan, One Hand clapping Koan, etc. These are relative Koans that ask for an absolute answer. Absolute is a basic teaching in Buddhism. Buddha Nature vs Dog (relative), answer is... The list goes on and on about examples of Koans like this. The more complicated Koans have to do Morality after the relative vs absolute are understood. Here things get dicey because morality is a thing that is individual so the answers have to do with the individual and the answers are not so standard. Morality has probably something to do with the Middle Ways, somewhere between the relative and absolute.

I see Soto as side steeping the issue of working with Koans as the very fact of working with Koans causes the relative. Using the mind to catch the mind. It just cannot be done.

I think that in Soto the relative and the absolute are always being manifested in front, past and future, right here and right now. No place to go but now which includes everything, Koans and no Koans. The Koan of life.

I see there role of the teacher, be it in Soto or Rinzai as making sure the student does not stray too far from the middle way, especially with absolutes. Absolutes can be a dangerous place without a healthy dose of morality provided by the teacher, the Sangha, the Precepts, etc.

In Shikantaza the issue of absolute vs relative is mute because it is all inclusive, beyond the relative and absolute. Dogen saw this and was fond of this method.

These are my wasted 2 cents on Koans.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

PS: A Zenny is someone who likes to play with the relative and the absolute because its just plain fun. Maybe this is why there are so many excentric zen students.

[SoR]

Hi,

Some people have a fascination with Koans. They are interesting and there is a lot to learn from them. That said they are also a big waste of time. The best answer to most of them is not to make a Koan where there is none. If you don't pick up a Koan then it is not yours to solve. Just chop wood and fetch water for the benefit of others.

That sounds like a Koan to me.

That said, the introductory Koans have to do with mostly the relative and the absolute. The answer to these is pretty standard. Examples are the Mu Koan, the Red Beard Koan, One Hand clapping Koan, etc. These are relative Koans that ask for an absolute answer. Absolute is a basic teaching in Buddhism. Buddha Nature vs Dog (relative), answer is... The list goes on and on about examples of Koans like this. The more complicated Koans have to do Morality after the relative vs absolute are understood. Here things get dicey because morality is a thing that is individual so the answers have to do with the individual and the answers are not so standard. Morality has probably something to do with the Middle Ways, somewhere between the relative and absolute.

The Buddha taught about the Triśikṣā, which are the three kinds of learning required for awakening. The first of these, śīla, is moral conduct. Can moral conduct really be individual? Does our conduct not affect others? Not existing in a vacuum, but rather inter-being with others, I don't believe this is the case.

I see Soto as side steeping the issue of working with Koans as the very fact of working with Koans causes the relative. Using the mind to catch the mind. It just cannot be done.

Dōgen's Shinji Shōbōgenzō is full of Koans. Dogen even had his own collection of 300 Koans. Can you explain what you mean?

I think that in Soto the relative and the absolute are always being manifested in front, past and future, right here and right now. No place to go but now which includes everything, Koans and no Koans. The Koan of life.

I see there role of the teacher, be it in Soto or Rinzai as making sure the student does not stray too far from the middle way, especially with absolutes. Absolutes can be a dangerous place without a healthy dose of morality provided by the teacher, the Sangha, the Precepts, etc.

In Shikantaza the issue of absolute vs relative is mute because it is all inclusive, beyond the relative and absolute. Dogen saw this and was fond of this method.

These are my wasted 2 cents on Koans.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

PS: A Zenny is someone who likes to play with the relative and the absolute because its just plain fun. Maybe this is why there are so many excentric zen students.

There's a great section in"Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" by Zen Master Seung Sahn on this (different Zen tradition, but valuable teaching):

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[Jishin]

No!

[SoR]

No!

[emoji120]

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Mp]

I have come to prefer our Sōtō way of allowing the rain of everyday sitting to soak through our skin until it fills us

I was never much for koan practice, I prefer just being present with lofe just as it is. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Koans, the way they were originally developed (before Dahui made them an object for concentration on a phrase during Zazen in the Rinzai way) and the way Dogen and others use them in our Soto Way, are basically teaching tools. There is a logic to them, but just not our normal "common sense" logic (which is the often incomplete). Most of the Koans "make sense" in Buddhist and Mahayana terms, and contain our perspectives. Koans can be explained, and were not developed merely as absurd and totally senseless stories.

For an excellent introduction to Koans used in such way, please look at our book club and our readings on each of the Koans (I think we got up to No. 75) of the Book of Serenity (aka Book of Equanimity), a Koan collection cherished in the Soto Tradition and by Dogen (who also cherished the Blue Cliff Record collection). You will see how the Koans actually have meaning.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?55-BEYOND-WORDS-LETTERS-BOOK-CLUB-TREELEAF-ART-CIRCLE/page3

The idea that Koans are meant to be totally meaningless, absurd and just monkey wrenches to the brain is ridiculous. For example, in ordinary logic a chair is not a mountain. In Zen, a chair is not a mountain yet it is, as are you too. Koans just help us understand such points. No, they are not merely to be understood with the brain intellectually, but one might say that they need to be understood with a freshly open brain and felt deep in the bones. They are often meant to be fun too (They usually contain humor. Part of the difficulty we have with them is that the old Chinese jokes, puns and references are hard to translate now ... but people got the jokes and cultural references back then).

I think that, before we move on to the next book in the book club, we should spend a few weeks moving on to a few more Koans in the Book of Equanimity. Let's do so.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Jishin]

Koans

The logic in Koans makes perfect sense to me and is a nice teaching tool in the Soto tradition. They also make perfect sense in the Rinzai sense. They are fun both ways. I just object to their use in the Rinzai sense in most cases. Let’s do some book of serenity stuff!

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS: I’ll take that back. I am grumpy today and also dislike Soto view of koans.

[Jundo]

PS: I’ll take that back. I am grumpy today and also dislike Soto view of koans.

That's a Koan too.

[Jishin]

I know. That’s why I said it.

[emoji2]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Tairin]

I like reading koans because I like little anecdotes like that. Some of the koans make sense to me and others don't. The ones that make sense I tend to reuse. The ones that don't make sense I set aside.


Warren
Sat today

[Risho]

What Warren said (and Jundo and Jishin) seriously, that's how I feel too. I really like them; funny sometimes (and I think this is how they are designed) how the ones I've set aside suddenly make sense. They are like benchmarks of practice. There are these common things that we encounter during our practice, which is why I think they resonate.

Jundo, I'm glad you brought it up; I really can't wait to get back into The Book of Equanimity!!!

Gassho,

Rish
-sat/lah

[aprapti]

I did koan study about 30 years. Some koans taught me much some did not. All i want to say here is, you can maybe become a great theoretical wine expert by reading books about wine. but without tasting wine you'll never become a connoiseur (according to my dictionary an English word too). Please enjoy the stories of the koans, but don't think that you will know what a koan is and can do without studying them with a qualified teacher. Even reading books about the mumonkan by Aitken or Shibayama wount be good enough. Three years ago i stopped koan practice, because i live too far from my teacher ( for Dutch proportions, may be you guys find it just around the corner) and now i do shikantaza again, like in my first three years.

maybe not even 2 cents,


Coos

std and did shikantaza

[Risho]

Sometimes the koans aren't in books but in our lives; sometimes we read something that isn't necessarily a "Zen" book but presents what is very much a koan.

Who is the qualified teacher who can teach us the koan that is our lives?

Gassho,

Rish
-st/lah

ps. ok I'm being koany. lol

[aprapti]

Who is the qualified teacher who can teach us the koan that is our lives?

in 1960 Karlfried Graf Duerckheim wrote a book: "Der Altag als Uebung" I don't know if it was translated in English, would be something like 'daily life as practice'. some questions have answers.


Coos
std

[Jishin]

Genjo Koan is a pretty cool one.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_