Kinhin?

[Jundo]

Kinhin mixed in with Zazen would be a great idea. Soto doesn’t really feel like Soto without any Zazen though. Perhaps something equally as beautiful, but not Soto. There I go getting attached to terms and conditions. Oh well.


Sat2day

At least 15 minutes of Zazen is asked now, and it will remain so even for sedentary folks. Any Kinhin would be after that,

Gassho, J

SaTTodayLAH

[Troy]

At least 15 minutes of Zazen is asked now, and it will remain so even for sedentary folks. Any Kinhin would be after that,

Gassho, J

SaTTodayLAH

Thank you for clarifying. [emoji1374] deep bows


Sat2day

[Ishin]

Still thinking about this, will have an "official policy" in the next day or so.

Fast or very physical activities can be (and often are best) with Shikantaza "non-gaining" mind. However, I do not think that they would be what we are looking for as a partial alternative to seated Zazen for sedentary people. There is a stillness of the body in sitting, and a stillness of the body in very slow walking, that is not found in gardening, marital arts Kata and the like. I mean, they have an inner mental stillness, but there is a time to make the body still as well. Even knitting and such would not count here as being just a little bit too purposive. It would be slow Kinhin. (The doctors are talking just about standing up, not exercise, so even seated knitting or Karate Kata misses the point). It is only about standing up or slow Kinhin, and exercise would not be part of this.

Yes, I do see your point about purposeful activity versus Kinhin. I really do wonder what the point of all this is, however. Are we really going to get into the purpose of helping people to be or not be sedentary? Is this what this place is about. I am not suggesting that this is a BAD thing, but is this really a Sangha thing? You have cautioned us/me before about not being involved or trying to make this forum about health advice. This whole business seems to be somewhat blurring the lines it seems. Historically many Chan buddhists did practice a variety of exercise routines because of the pressures of long sitting periods;things like 18 Lohan Qi Gong. We have even had members volunteer yoga instruction during sesshins. But to me an official Treeleaf policy about the balance of your sedentary lifestyle seems a bit of a.. stretch ( pun intended)

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today/lah

[Jundo]

Yes, I do see your point about purposeful activity versus Kinhin. I really do wonder what the point of all this is, however. Are we really going to get into the purpose of helping people to be or not be sedentary? Is this what this place is about. I am not suggesting that this is a BAD thing, but is this really a Sangha thing? You have cautioned us/me before about not being involved or trying to make this forum about health advice. This whole business seems to be somewhat blurring the lines it seems. Historically many Chan buddhists did practice a variety of exercise routines because of the pressures of long sitting periods;things like 18 Lohan Qi Gong. We have even had members volunteer yoga instruction during sesshins. But to me an official Treeleaf policy about the balance of your sedentary lifestyle seems a bit of a.. stretch ( pun intended)

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today/lah

Hi Ishin,

It is a good point.

I just have had a few people write me recently who have unusually sedentary jobs and lifestyles as truck and bus drivers, and desk jockeys. They don't want to spend so much more time sitting. So, I have suggested to them that, instead of sitting for 30 minutes, they might sit 15 minutes with 15 minutes of slow Kinhin.

I am just giving them the option, and it is really nothing new (since we already have a suggested minimum of 15 minutes for Zazen).

It is optional too, and no requirement.

However, in fact, the traditional Zen monastic lifestyle was very vigorous and physical. The monks did not just sit around all day, but labored, cleaned, held intricate ceremonies, moved that body. I think that a good thing. I don't think we will go so far as to require people to exercise, but I see nothing wrong in encouraging people who are physically able (and in consultation with their doctor). I don't think we will recommend any particular exercises or sports. Any physical activity from gardening and floor cleaning, to tennis and and curling and jogging and Karate Kata, can be done with a Zenny "non-gaining" mind, and I see nothing wrong in teaching that to people.

But in this case, it is not exercise. It is just letting people walk some slow Kinhin a bit instead of only sitting, if they want.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Meitou]

....However, in fact, the traditional Zen monastic lifestyle was very vigorous and physical. The monks did not just sit around all day, but labored, cleaned, held intricate ceremonies, moved that body. I think that a good thing. I don't think we will go so far as to require people to exercise, but I see nothing wrong in encouraging people who are physically able (and in consultation with their doctor). I don't think we will recommend any particular exercises or sports. Any physical activity from gardening and floor cleaning, to tennis and jogging and Karate Kate, can be done with a Zenny "non-gaining" mind, and I see nothing wrong in teaching that to people.

But in this case, it is not exercise. It is just letting people walk some slow Kinhin a bit instead of only sitting, if they want.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

And should anyone doubt the rigours of the monastic life, do have a look at Eat Sleep Sit by Kaoru Nonomura, a truly amazing book which left me open mouthed with admiration and respect for anyone who has survived such a tough regime. I wouldn't even have got as far as using the loo.

Gassho
Frankie
satwithyoualltoday/lah

[Mp]

And should anyone doubt the rigours of the monastic life, do have a look at Eat Sleep Sit by Kaoru Nonomura, a truly amazing book which left me open mouthed with admiration and respect for anyone who has survived such a tough regime. I wouldn't even have got as far as using the loo.

Gassho
Frankie
satwithyoualltoday/lah

Thank you Frankie, that book is on my wish list. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Ishin]

Hi Ishin,

It is a good point.

I just have had a few people write me recently who have unusually sedentary jobs and lifestyles as truck and bus drivers, and desk jockeys. They don't want to spend so much more time sitting. So, I have suggested to them that, instead of sitting for 30 minutes, they might sit 15 minutes with 15 minutes of slow Kinhin.

I am just giving them the option, and it is really nothing new (since we already have a suggested minimum of 15 minutes for Zazen).

It is optional too, and no requirement.

However, in fact, the traditional Zen monastic lifestyle was very vigorous and physical. The monks did not just sit around all day, but labored, cleaned, held intricate ceremonies, moved that body. I think that a good thing. I don't think we will go so far as to require people to exercise, but I see nothing wrong in encouraging people who are physically able (and in consultation with their doctor). I don't think we will recommend any particular exercises or sports. Any physical activity from gardening and floor cleaning, to tennis and jogging and Karate Kate, can be done with a Zenny "non-gaining" mind, and I see nothing wrong in teaching that to people.

But in this case, it is not exercise. It is just letting people walk some slow Kinhin a bit instead of only sitting, if they want.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Gassho

Ishin
Sat Today lah

[Kyousui]

In my home liturgy, I always do 1 round of the rooms in my house in Kinhin after 40 minutes of Zazen. It tends to wake me and my legs back up and then I finish with some Metta chanting as well as the heart sutra and D E Zenji's Vow for Awakening. Makes for a satisfying sit and seems to be right for me.

Sat today/LAH

[Jundo]

Ok, time for the BIG "OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT" of this Kinhin Policy .... DRUMROLLLLLL !!!!!! ....
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The following, or something close to it will be posted a couple of places in the forum where, for example, recommended sitting times are discussed ...
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Are you ready?
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HERE IT IS!:
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Some Sangha members with particularly sedentary jobs, such as truck drivers and desk workers, have asked if they can walk slow Kinhin walking at home in partial replacement of sitting Zazen. We ask that everyone in this Sangha sit Zazen each day in a seated posture (e.g., Lotus, Burmese, Seiza, Chair) for at least 15 minutes if physically able. However, it is fine if, after that 15 minutes, someone wishes to walk slow Kinhin rather than sit for a longer period. There is no problem to do so if someone wishes.
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Is that okay?


Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Kyonin]

Hi Jundo,

Sounds good to me. Thank you.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Byokan]

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Kokuu]

Looks good to me.

Thank you for clarifying, Jundo.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Troy]

[emoji1374]looks good


Sat2day

[Meitou]

Great idea, thank you Jundo

From the film Baraka..some kinhin

https://youtu.be/baKav_qlVT8

Gassho
Frankie
satwithyoualltoday/lah

[Seishin]

Good. With me.

STMIZ