Kinhin?

[Rob VanCamp]

I know kinhin isn't 'just sitting', but many zendos include it in the liturgy. It raises a question;
Can I do a form of Kinhin by walking in place (I'm not at all sure that a truck stop is the best venue for it)?

The reason I ask is because I want my daily routine to mimic as closely as possible an actual zendo. I don't like chanting, I find it jarring and unsettling for the most part. There are one or two I like, though...

[Amelia]

Kinhin can be done any time you are walking. Instead of including kinhin in my daily sitting, I usually engage in a kind of kinhin while walking my dog. Really, any time you are walking is a good time for the kinhin mindset.

Technically though, if you want to copy the usual routine in your daily life, a lot of sanghas do it differently. Our style is the slow walking between sitting periods that you see in our zazenkai videos. It helps to kind of revitalize the body after a long time with your legs crossed on the ground! So if you want to do what we do, it is usually done between two sitting periods, or after a single sitting period. We take about a half step at the top of each breath, keeping the spirit of shikantaza as we walk clockwise.

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Mp]

Hey Rob,

As Geika said, you can practice kinhin anywhere ... just be present to each step, to each breathe you take, and yet to be present to the world around you. Just like in Shikantaza we try not to focus or become attached to any specific point, but rather to be accepting and allow all things to just come and go, like clouds in the vast blue sky.

If you really wanted and this also depends on the size of your sleeper in your truck, but you can do kinhin there too. Your steps would be much smaller, but you are able to do it.

Hope this helps. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Rob,

You know, this actually came up recently with a couple of people who have jobs that require unusually long amount of sitting, such as yours. Really, so many of us are sitting at desks too much. This was not an issue in the 13th Century for most people. It is not an issue for most monks in monasteries, who do move about quite a bit during the day cleaning and gardening, etc.

I am actually thinking about allowing such folks to walk more Kinhin, as long as they sit at least a few minutes each day and feel that they can embody the same "nowhere to go, just here" attitude as in Zazen. I have not heard another Zen Teacher openly recommend that, but I am considering it as an "official" option around here because, well, I look at my own spare tire sometimes. Doctors these days are saying that too much daily sitting is a health issue.

So, sit a bit each day, but the Kinhin is fine is you bring the right attitude, i.e., that you are "sitting still, " but just while standing and slowly stepping with each breath.


What do other folks think about allowing, or encouraging, more Kinhin? Of course, it would be up to every individual, as we are all sitting on our own at home and such.

Here is a "We're All Beginners" Talk that covers Kinhin, from about the 12:30 mark (aided by Yuriko the Cat)

Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (12)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14884-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2812%29&highlight=kinhin

What do other folks think generally about what I wrote above?? I am thinking about recent articles such as this ...

Mayo Clinic: What are the risks of sitting too much?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/expert-answers/sitting/faq-20058005

Let me underline however: Sitting Zazen is best, and 30 minutes alone is not harmful if you move other times. However, this is for people who might feel that they sit too much.

Gassho, J

SatToday(too much?)LAH

[Roland]

Maybe this is a silly question, but would it make any sense to practice karate-kata with a 'nowhere to go, just here'-attitude? Kata are meticulously arranged movements, in this case performed solo. Would the movements have to be slowed down or could they stay fast and brisk when so prescribed? I could imagine performing the katas while not clinging to all the stories we tell ourselves internally, not clinging to any idea of success or failure. I even guess that is the way they should be performed, but would it be considered a kind of kinhin or at least a zen practice?

Gassho

Roland
SatToday/LAH

[Seishin]

Maybe this is a silly question, but would it make any sense to practice karate-kata with a 'nowhere to go, just here'-attitude? Kata are meticulously arranged movements, in this case performed solo. Would the movements have to be slowed down or could they stay fast and brisk when so prescribed? I could imagine performing the katas while not clinging to all the stories we tell ourselves internally, not clinging to any idea of success or failure. I even guess that is the way they should be performed, but would it be considered a kind of kinhin or at least a zen practice?

Gassho

Roland
SatToday/LAH

Roland

As an ex karateka and instructor I guess this is all down to mind set. I cannot say I ever thought about work issues or home life when training, including kata. My view was to put your "whole" - body, heart, soul, mind, spirit - into every move and if performed slowly and carefully with concentration on breathing and movement together, it could be seen as kind of kihin. Another way would be to practice under dynamic tension, a training method we/I used for years but with the exertion its probable more like a Rinzai than Soto kata. But it is really good to developing speed and power.

As to the OP as I take part in the Zazenkai recordings on demand, I use the kihin sections as a breakpoint so I can come back to the recording at the next sitting. As to kihin itself, I've practiced this like Geika walking the dog in a variety of place. She (the dog) often gets a bit confused when I slow to a half step crawl in the middle of nowhere and looks up as if to say "get a wriggle on Dad". Kihin in a forest is especially peaceful.

Just my fraction of a euro.

STMIZ lah

[Joyo]

I think that is wonderful idea, Jundo. Especially since you are still encouraging folks to sit zazen when they can.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jundo]

I believe Karate Kate would be fine too, moving Zen. It all comes down to the same "non-gaining" attitude, just as Toby says.

Just to emphasize, I still think we need to sit sitting Zazen for some time each time, because there is a power to have the body quiet and stable and not otherwise occupied. However, there could be a bit less sitting, with moving Zazen added.

I want to sit with this for a couple of more days, but it may be a good thing ... as I sit at my desk here typing all day.

Gassho, J

Sat(on my butt)today,LAH

[Meitou]

From the beginning of Ango I've been adding some kinhin into my daily sitting at times when pains in my legs or back are really troubling me - I've adopted the same method we use during zazenkai. As I get older I do worry about sitting cross legged for long periods and whether that may cause circulation problems, although I rarely sit longer than 30-40 minutes in one go. I guess it's a bit like the advice on getting up and walking about on a long flight. I sit around way to much these days so I think this is a great idea!
Gassho
Frankie
Satwithyoualltoday /lah

[Risho]

Wow I'm glad I found this thread! Very interesting posts per the norm around here . Thank you as always.

Gassho

Rish
-st

[Seishin]

I believe Karate Kate would be fine too, moving Zen. It all comes down to the same "non-gaining" attitude, just as Toby says.

Just to emphasize, I still think we need to sit sitting Zazen for some time each time, because there is a power to have the body quiet and stable and not otherwise occupied. However, there could be a bit less sitting, with moving Zazen added.

I want to sit with this for a couple of more days, but it may be a good thing ... as I sit at my desk here typing all day.

Gassho, J

Sat(on my butt)today,LAH

Jundo

Yes sitting daily once twice once thrice, not once not twice or thrice is where its at YES YES faking it in my bones yes. But I reverse engineered what I did years ago with my then limited Zen knowledge (as if its grown much !) and a few months back went back over kata I'd long forgotten in a "shikantaza" way, no thought or more holding of thoughts moving breathing feeling. Man it felt good - wasn't chasing speed, technique or power, just being and feeling the kata. It works. Same with running (don't know if Kyonin gets this) running with shikantaza let the breath be what it is breathing, no 2 steps IN 2 steps out, just breath the breatheless breath. Its brought a whole new experience to running after 35+ years.

So yes, walking, karate kat, running all can be a form of zen or kihin.

But stop press - buy a motorcycle and ride. Off the zafu there is no other "in the moment every moment ness". Cause if you ain't in the moment you're in the ditch. Hey Mr Pirsig got me here after all, all those years ago. 2 Wheeled Kihin or Shikantaza just awesome ......... see my youtube posts for proof.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2wcjHmnrFuQyom6tqUtdrQ/featured?view_as=subscriber

Sat too busy to ride (mmm also too foggy)

[Ishin]

I was about to discuss that I find martial arts practice be to a form of moving zen, but see others have already commented. There is also samu. When I do gardening in my yard I try to do it in this manner full present using as few loud machines as possible. Being fully present and mindful.

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today/ LAH

[Jundo]

Still thinking about this, will have an "official policy" in the next day or so.

Fast or very physical activities can be (and often are best) with Shikantaza "non-gaining" mind. However, I do not think that they would be what we are looking for as a partial alternative to seated Zazen for sedentary people. There is a stillness of the body in sitting, and a stillness of the body in very slow walking, that is not found in gardening, marital arts Kata and the like. I mean, they have an inner mental stillness, but there is a time to make the body still as well. Even knitting and such would not count here as being just a little bit too purposive. It would be slow Kinhin. (The doctors are talking just about standing up, not exercise, so even seated knitting or Karate Kata misses the point). It is only about standing up or slow Kinhin, and exercise would not be part of this.

Just to emphasize, if this is done, it will be PURELY UP TO EACH INDIVIDUAL, and is only for people who really sit excessive amounts at work (at desks, drivers) or watching Netflix. Nobody will even recommend it, just leave it as a personal option if that is what somebody wants.

Further, I am thinking that some Zazen sitting that is sitting will still be needed, at least 15 minutes facing the wall, before slow Kinhin is an option.

Furthermore, people with physical limitations can still do whatever they need to do or can do, and this is unrelated. Further, nobody who does not wish to do this, and is happy with their life, need do it.

If we do this, it would not be about beauty or body shape in any way. Everyone is lovely, a jewel, as they are. It would be only about someone's personal view of sitting too much each day, and the current recommendation of doctors that sitting too much might not be healthy for us. If somebody already has a job and lifestyle where they walk or stand all day, then those people should sit.

Be back at ya.

Gassho, J

[Seishin]

So yes, walking, karate kat, running all can be a form of zen or kihin.

To clarify what I said above. The emphasis being on CAN and not ARE, similar experiences yes, with a stillness of mind, not gaining, attaching, just doing. No replacement though just MHO.

SAT

[Troy]

Kinhin mixed in with Zazen would be a great idea. Soto doesn’t really feel like Soto without any Zazen though. Perhaps something equally as beautiful, but not Soto. There I go getting attached to terms and conditions. Oh well.


Sat2day