The science of zen

[Chishou]

As someone whose career (and daily life) is based on doing things based on scientific evidence, I am interested in the idea of the science behind the benefits of zazen. Below is a video summerising the evidence for "Mindful medititation", it basically says that the studies so far are poor due to bad trial conditions.

This made me think, do I really need someone in a labcoat to tell me its good and I should do it? IMO, no. This is probably one of the few things I am okay with not being properly evidence based, I feel I trust those before me in saying zazen is the required to understanding the way.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts,

Deep bows,

Simon.

[Souchi]

You might also be interested in this talk by James H. Austin:

Jundo wrote something about him and his work in this thread: new Study on Meditation

Usually, I am on the science side, too. And I agree that it is probably not relevant to know the scientific details about Zazen. Without doing it by yourself, it is just theorizing. Like describing how a banana tastes vs. eating a banana

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi,

I recently read a criticism that even Dr. Austin's phone book sized books on all manner of research about Zen, mystical experiences and the brain, are not a closed book. Even Austin admits in the book that things are far from clear (page 127 here):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=7dYV9UJszlUC&dq=rational+mysticism+horgan&q=an+underlying+theme+of+zen+and+the+brain#v=snippet&q=an%20underlying%20theme%20of%20zen%20and%20the%20brain&f=false

Things are far from as clear cut as this talk by Dr. Austin might lead some to conclude. Brain studies on the effects of meditation are also a bit all over the board, and are sometimes producing completely contradictory results. Our more science trained folks might interpret the following more precisely, but I believe it is saying that results are quite mixed, test methods questionable and actually hard to interpret. It is from a major "Meta-Study" on meditation, a study looking at the quality of studies on meditation
...

The report concluded, "Scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality. Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence. Future research on meditation practices must be more rigorous in the design and execution of studies and in the analysis and reporting of results." ... "Most clinical trials on meditation practices are generally characterized by poor methodological quality with significant threats to validity in every major quality domain assessed".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764203

That really does not matter for our Shikantaza Practice, by the way. Whatever the cause, the Practice results in experiences and a sense of Wholeness, fluidity, peace and the like which carries into my life. That is enough, proof is in the pudding. I do not need to know that chemical formula of vanilla ice cream, nor the nature of the receptors in the gustatory and olfactory systems, to know that it tastes good. Yum.


Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Shokai]

That is a ten year old study

2007 Jun

surely we're further ahead now than stated.

gassho, Shokai
sat/LAH

[Mp]

That is a ten year old study surely we're further ahead now than stated.

gassho, Shokai
sat/LAH

Ohh, but zazen is beyond space and time.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Ishin]

Professor you might be interested in this talk by John Daido Loori, Roshi. He mentions a study in it about the effects of Zen on the brain.

https://zmm.mro.org/teachings/the-original-source/

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today LAH

[Jundo]

Professor you might be interested in this talk by John Daido Loori, Roshi. He mentions a study in it about the effects of Zen on the brain.

https://zmm.mro.org/teachings/the-original-source/

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today LAH

Most of those studies of the effects of meditation on the brain are very ambiguous, some highly contradictory. Nobody really knows what is going on. I have been reading a bit lately that the work of a doctor named Andrew Newberg which purported to identify a "god module" in the brain responsible for many religious and spiritual experiences is actually poorly done and inconclusive. The "module" keeps jumping around.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Ishin]

Most of those studies of the effects of meditation on the brain are very ambiguous, some highly contradictory. Nobody really knows what is going on. I have been reading a bit lately that the work of a doctor named Andrew Newberg which purported to identify a "god module" in the brain responsible for many religious and spiritual experiences is actually poorly done and inconclusive. The "module" keeps jumping around.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

I agree with your original premise that it really doesn't matter to our practice or experience. However it is interesting. I still like this talk though, regardless of the study mentioned

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today Lah

[Meishin]

It seems the neuroscience re Zen is a bit of a muddle. As is the neuroscience of "mindfulness." I just read this article which suggests that a daydreaming mind is correlated with a smart brain. http://neurosciencenews.com/intellig...dreaming-7798/ Who knows?

Gassho
meishin
sat today lah

[Souchi]

Hmmm, but everything is written down in a book... so it must be true!

Yes, the conclusions drawn from the studies are probably a bit fuzzy. Should have added the usual disclaimer to my first post

"Do not believe in science blindly. Have a look for yourself and then think about it."

I am not saying that scientists lie to us on purpose or that there is a huge conspiracy going on. Studies are done, conclusions are drawn, results get published. The conclusions might be wrong. That is science. Other people notice there is something unclear or wrong and try to fix or disprove it. That is also science. "The fuzzier the topic the fuzzier the results" often holds. Sometimes scientific works turn out to be no science at all but just wishful thinking. (That is not meant in a negative way, more as an observation.)

Enough of the rambling, now please go and check out some ==> SCIENCE <==

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

[Jundo]

Hmmm, but everything is written down in a book... so it must be true!

Yes, the conclusions drawn from the studies are probably a bit fuzzy. Should have added the usual disclaimer to my first post

"Do not believe in science blindly. Have a look for yourself and then think about it."

I am not saying that scientists lie to us on purpose or that there is a huge conspiracy going on. Studies are done, conclusions are drawn, results get published. The conclusions might be wrong. That is science. Other people notice there is something unclear or wrong and try to fix or disprove it. That is also science. "The fuzzier the topic the fuzzier the results" often holds. Sometimes scientific works turn out to be no science at all but just wishful thinking. (That is not meant in a negative way, more as an observation.)

Enough of the rambling, now please go and check out some ==> SCIENCE <==

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

Most of the criticism of the meditation studies were (as I understand) tester designers who were themselves often TM or other meditators and tended to interpret small statistical results in very optimistic ways, lack of proper control groups, small samples, small test periods (for example, the test being run for only a couple of weeks), very subjective standards, mixing and matching kinds of meditation without clarifying method, poor screening of other factors, most effects seemed well in the range of just a possible statistical blip, positive studies getting a lot of press (often exaggerated by the media) but inconclusive or negative tests getting little attention, and many other issues. I believe that over 95% of the tests were considered poorly designed in that meta-study I cited. The TM folks were really bad about bending results to sustain the conclusions that they were hoping for.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Joyo]

Hi Professor,

I am not interested in the science behind the benefits of zazen. Sometimes the more one studies and thinks, the less one knows.

This is my 2 cents, coming from an over thinker.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Shoki]

Isn't this latest study regarding Mindfulness meditation not Shikantaza? So I don't know if we can transfer the findings over to us. I mean if I do a study on football can I say it relates to basketball too because it's a ball? I do not practice zazen to lower my cholesterol, keep my blood pressure under control, relieve stress or cure baldness. If it does that, fine. If not, that's OK too.

Gassho
Sat Today / LAH
James

[Shokai]

I do not practice zazen to lower my cholesterol, keep my blood pressure under control, relieve stress or cure baldness.

I think you just said it all

gassho, Shokai

sat/LAH

[HAN SEN]

The real problem with TM studies is the mind-set, that the practice itself is so pure that the neophyte gets instant results... the problem is, they don't. Roy C. Mathew used seasoned experienced Raja yoga practicioners from India, and seasonsed experienced Zen practicioners from Japan and got very reliable results. But not the same results. see his book "True Path" - the same holds true for mindfulness meditation. You can't group beginners with experienced and trained practicioners. Mindfulness meditation is for the most part lightly applied mindfulness of breathing, practiced diligently it can be wonderful, but for the most part something more is required to reached avowedly profound physiological and cognitive changes