Rebirth

[Khalil Bodhi]

As I was reading Living by Vow this morning I came across the following quite of Master Dōgen:

"Now I have the fortune to be born a human being and prepare food to be received by the three jewels. Is this not a great karmic affinity? We must be very happy about this.”

Excerpt From: "Living by Vow: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts" by Shohaku Okumura. Scribd.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Read this book on Scribd: https://www.scribd.com/book/265261088

I see that at this point in history, there was still a lot of faith in rebirth as traditionally described in the Nikayas and the Agamas. I was surprised because it had been my experience that this is no longer the case in many Zen circles. The six realms and 31 planes are more often described as psychological states.

Anyway, I wanted to get a feeling for how common the view of Master Dōgen is in our Sangha. For myself, I have a lot of faith in rebirth as described in the quote and in the sutras. Anyway, I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts.

_/|\_metta,

Mike
st


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tairin]

Initially I had quite a problem with "rebirth" as I equated it to mean "reincarnation". Over time I've come to accept that rebirth is a continual thing occurring to me even now as I type this response. Each moment is a new moment, with new possibilities and opportunities. I am reborn into this moment now.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today and will LAH shortly

[Shinshou]

The Buddha taught the reincarnation type of rebirth, not the moment to moment renewal of ourselves. He didn't just allow it but actively promoted and preached it.

I'll be interested to read what Jundo and our unsui have to say.

Dan
Sat today

[Mp]

Hello Mike,

I for one am not big on rebirth/reincarnation. I feel if one is dealing with or dissolving negative karma, right here, right now is the only place that can happen. This life is most valuable and we should not waste it ...

Great is the matter of life and death
Life slips quickly by
Time waits for no one
Wake Up Wake Up
Don't waste a moment!

I also believe that the Six Realms of Samsara are and can be right here, right now. If we have anger/hatred in our hearts; our lives will be filled with hate. If you have kindness and equanimity in our hearts; we will know a life of peace. These six realms I feel are not just a state of mind, but a state of being. Why wait until I am dead and gone to dissolve and be free from such sufferings? In this life, in this moment I can be free of such delusions even while abiding in Samsara.

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Mike,

Some in modern Soto Zen believe in a very traditional view of rebirth and some modern Zen folks do not. In any event, it is not as central to Zen as to most other flavors of Buddhism, because of Zen's general emphasis on transcending such questions, liberation from birth and death, and the immediate moment here and now. Nonetheless, I believe that the majority of Zen folks thru the centuries probably believed in very traditional views of rebirth in some way (and probably Dogen did, as would be expected of most folks of his day and age) .

In my case, I personally am rather agnostic on post mortem rebirth (and very skeptical to the point of firm disbelief of more detailed, mechanical views) on the matter, although I do believe that we are born and born constantly in each moment, and also born with every blade of grass and distant star (whatever is born is also our birth too). But on the question of coming back as a cockroach or a goddess, I say usually ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

The question of post mortem rebirth is just not so important to me and my Practice, which is focused on my behavior in this life, thank you.

Here are a couple of threads I have written on the topic.

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6102-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VI-%28Karma%29

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6245-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VII-%28Life-After-Death-%29

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday (and was born and born today) LAH

[Khalil Bodhi]

Rev. Jundo,

Thanks for your reply! I read through those threads. Also, since I don't want to clog up the forum with new threads, could you quickly let me know what honorifics I should use when addressing you and junior unsui?

_/|\_ with metta,

Mike
st

[BadChemEng]

I do believe that we are born and born constantly in each moment, and also born with every blade of grass and distant star

These words speak true to my heart. Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,
Brad
SatToday/LAH

[Sekishi]

Hi Mike,

I rest comfortably in "not knowing" on this question. I used to have very materialistic views (in the philosophical sense) and therefore a sceptical stance on "mechanical views on rebirth" (as Jundo put it), but this has loosened with time.

As was recently discussed in the precept thread - we vow to save all beings. What if they don't want to be saved? How can we possibly save ALL beings? I feel about these questions the same as I feel about rebirth. Who is saved? Who does the saving? Who or what is reborn?

I have a personal answer to this question, but it may or may not be in line with what the Buddhas of old understood.

If the left hand applies a healing salve and bandage to a wound on the right hand, who is healed, and who does the healing?

Also, since I don't want to clog up the forum with new threads, could you quickly let me know what honorifics I should use when addressing you and junior unsui?

I respond fine to "hey you!".

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

[Khalil Bodhi]

Hi Mike,

I rest comfortably in "not knowing" on this question. I used to have very materialistic views (in the philosophical sense) and therefore a sceptical stance on "mechanical views on rebirth" (as Jundo put it), but this has loosened with time.

As was recently discussed in the precept thread - we vow to save all beings. What if they don't want to be saved? How can we possibly save ALL beings? I feel about these questions the same as I feel about rebirth. Who is saved? Who does the saving? Who or what is reborn?

I have a personal answer to this question, but it may or may not be in line with what the Buddhas of old understood.

If the left hand applies a healing salve and bandage to a wound on the right hand, who is healed, and who does the healing?



I respond fine to "hey you!".

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

Hey you Sekishi! Thanks!

with metta,

Mike
st

[Chishou]

From what I understand, Dogen wasn't keen on the "non-buddhist view" of rebirth.

My personal interpretation is: if the only moment that truly exists is now, then from one moment to the next I "die" and am "reborn" in the next moment.

Gassho
Simon
座りました


Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

[Chishou]

https://youtu.be/lE9dvJOUCLE

Check out Kokuu-san's reading of Shoji. He has a voice for narration!


Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

[Khalil Bodhi]

https://youtu.be/lE9dvJOUCLE

Check out Kokuu-san's reading of Shoji. He has a voice for narration!


Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

Thanks. I had actually just listened to it before you posted.

_/|\_ With metta,

Mike
st|lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Rev. Jundo,

Thanks for your reply! I read through those threads. Also, since I don't want to clog up the forum with new threads, could you quickly let me know what honorifics I should use when addressing you and junior unsui?

_/|\_ with metta,

Mike
st

Hi Mike,

No particular honorific needed, thank you.

I like to say that the Buddha was a man of Iron Age India, 2500 years ago, so spoke of the world in ways common to that time (his view of Rebirth had its own twists, but was not that different from ideas common in India at the time). Dogen spoke as a man of the 13th Century, trying to understanding the world as best they could in that day and ago. They might both have been wrong.

(Yes, even the Buddha might have been wrong, despite the tendency in Buddhism to say that he had to be right about everything. I once had a fellow tell me that the Buddha, had he wanted, could have built a 777 back then because he knew everything. I doubt it. )

Then again, I might be wrong.

In any case, it does not matter in Zen Practice for two reasons:

1 - In this life, fetch wood and carry water and do what needs to be done, be good and gentle whether there are other lives to come or not. This present moment is the pivot point of life and all Practice. If there are future lives, live gently now. If there are no future lives, live gently now. Do not create heavens and hells in this present world.

2 - Even in classical Buddhism, rebirth was a mental delusion, created by our own ignorance, a kind of dream. The point of our Practice is to see through birth and death, realize that it is a mental creation, and thus become free. In his writings on the Fox Koan, Dogen observed that one can realize that there is ultimately no Rebirth when the mind can see through the mirage of Rebirth. Nonetheless, we should live in this world still aware of Karma, and that our actions have consequences, thus being responsible for our volitional acts. I once wrote this, if you are interested, Mike ...

[According to many Teachings common in traditional Buddhism,] Rebirth is a dream, a self-created delusion ... like a child's belief in the "boogeyman under the bed." It is the false belief itself which makes him real as real can be (at least, for the child), and our own ignorance and divided thinking which sustain the existence. The "boogeyman" under such conditions is very real. When the lights come on, the "boogeyman" is gone, and was never there all along. Rebirth is likewise such a self-created dream made real in our minds. No birth no death no cause no effect no me no you, so who or what is there to be reborn? There are so many examples in the Mahayana texts ..

Defilements, karmas, doers, rewards, and punishments are all similar to a mirage, a dream, a shadow of light and an echo of voice. (From the Twelve Gate Treatise attributed to Nagarjuna]
https://books.google.co.jp/books?red...effect&f=false

.
... and yet ...

So long as we are alive in this life and world of you and me, our good and bad actions have effects. Karma is real, and I have seen countless people create "heavens" and "hells" for themselves, if not in some next life, then at least in this one. We are reborn again and again from the pivot point of each moment.

Dogen also had a seemingly conflicting view of the Fox Koan, but was their conflict? Zen Masters often talk "out of both sides of their no sided mouth."

On the one hand, in Shobogenzo-Daishugyo, he seemed to imply that there is nothing to escape from and even the Fox was free all along ... What "return"?

As a rule, those who have never truly encountered or heard about the Buddha Dharma say, “After he had completely rid himself of the wild fox, he returned to the ocean of his Original Nature. Even though he was reduced to being a wild fox for a while due to his delusion, after he had had a great awakening, he shed being a wild fox and returned to his Original Nature.” They mean by this that he returned to some innate, unchanging self which non-Buddhists speak of. [But] this is not the Buddha Dharma. If they were to say that a wild fox is devoid of Original Nature or that a wild fox has no innate enlightenment, such [also] would not be the Buddha Dharma.

He also wrote a few years later in Jinshin inga, critical of those who believe that ... since all is as a dream, how we act has no ramifications ...

In present-day Sung China, among those doing the practice of seated meditation, the folks who are the most in the dark are those who do not know that the teaching of "not being subject to cause and effect" is a false view. Sad to say ... heretical gangs have formed who deny cause and effect. Those who are exploring the Matter through training with their Master should by all means hasten to make clear the fundamental principle of cause and effect. The later Hyakujō’s principle of not being blind to cause and effect means not ignoring the presence of causality. Hence, the underlying principle is clear: we feel the effects of the causes that we put into action.

... To summarize, the principle of cause and effect is quite clear, and it is totally impersonal [in its workings]: those who fabricate evil will fall into a lower state, whereas those who practice good will rise to a higher state, and without the slightest disparity. If cause and effect had become null and void, Buddhas would never have appeared in the world and our Ancestral Master [Bodhidharma] would not have come from the West.

I say that it is all a dream, there is no fox or old Zen Master, no cause or effect, no rebirth and no place to return ... and yet, there are cause and effect and all ramifications. Live gently, live well.

Anyway, enough for now ... I have weeds to pull in the garden today.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

https://youtu.be/lE9dvJOUCLE

Check out Kokuu-san's reading of Shoji. He has a voice for narration!


Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

I will add this on Shoji, one of Dogen's most powerful pieces. Dogen (now dead ... but only in a manner of speaking!) had his own rather existentialist tune to play on the theme of life and death. It was something like "What birth what death? All is Buddha beyond birth and death! Yet there is birth and death! Birth and death are Buddha too! Even Buddha kicks the bucket! Do not think that life becomes death ... because when one is that is what is, life is life and death wholly death. So, don't look away and, when your time come to die, just drop dead or die trying!" This is from Shobogenzo-Shoji ... Birth and Death ...

"Because a buddha is in birth and death, there is no birth and death."

It is also said, "Because a buddha is not in birth and death, a buddha is not deluded by birth and death."

These statements are the essence of the words of the two Zen masters Jiashan and Dingshan. You should certainly not neglect them, because they are the words of those who attained the way.

2

Those who want to be free from birth and death should understand the meaning of these words. If you search for a buddha outside birth and death, it will be like trying to go to the southern country of Yue with our spear heading towards the north, or like trying to see the Big Dipper while you are facing south; you will cause yourself to remain all the more in birth and death and lose the way of emancipation.

Just understand that birth-and-death is itself nirvana. There is nothing such as birth and death to be avoided; there is nothing such as nirvana to be sought. Only when you realize this are you free from birth and death.

3

It is a mistake to suppose that birth turns into death. Birth is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past and future.

For this reason, in buddha-dharma birth is understood as no-birth.*

Death is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past

and future. For this reason, death is understood as no-death.*

In birth there is nothing but birth and in death there is nothing but death. Accordingly, when birth comes, face and actualize birth, and when death comes, face and actualize death. Do not avoid them or desire them.

Birth and death as the experience of nirvana.

4

This birth and death is the life of buddha. If you try to exclude it you will lose the life of buddha. If you cling to it, trying to remain in it, you will also lose the life of buddha, and what remains will be the mere form of buddha. Only when you don’t dislike birth and death or long for them, do you enter buddha’s mind.

However, do not analyze or speak about it. Just set aside your body and mind, forget about them, and throw them into the house of buddha; then all is done by buddha. When you follow this, you are free from birth and death and become a buddha without effort or calculation. Who then continues to think?

5

There is a simple way to become buddha: When you refrain from unwholesome actions, are not attached to birth and death, and are compassionate toward all sentient beings, respectful to seniors and kind to juniors, not excluding or desiring anything, with no designing thoughts or worries, you will be called a buddha. Do not seek anything else.

And he wrote in Shobogenzo Genjo Koan ...

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.

I might offer these as something like ...

"When living, all is living, live fully cause your life depends on it ... when dying, die fully, die with all your heart ... pushing neither away ... Each is complete in itself, each and both are the whole of life".


Gassho, J

[Shokai]

joke.jpg

Oops, sorry, wrong photo.....

sawaki death.jpg

gassho,

sat/LAH