Rebirth

[Chishou]

When listening to Kokuu-san's reading, when he got to the part about firewood turn to ash, it ring so true that I felt as if I wanted to cry.

Despite my job being to make dead people not dead, I know that very few actually every get a heat beat back and fewer keep it. A small part of my has always felt responsible for not being able to help, but after hearing Shoji, it was like a weight was lifted. Its okay if people die, we all have too.

"Firewood becomes ash. Ash cannot turn back into firewood again. However, we should not view ash as after and firewood as before. We should know that firewood dwells in the dharma position of firewood and it has its own before and after. Although there is before and after, past and future are cut off. Ash stays at the position of ash and it has its own before and after. As firewood never becomes firewood again after it is burned and becomes ash, after person dies, there is no return to living.."

Deep bows of gratitude.

Simon.
Not sat today as I'm on a night and its now tomorrow.



Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

[Jishin]

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gassho,

sat/LAH

[emoji4]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

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gassho,

sat/LAH

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Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jishin]

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Eishuu]

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gassho,

sat/LAH

　Made me laugh out loud!

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Rich]

Thanks Jundo and all who contributed to this discussion.

SAT today
[emoji120]

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[Kyonin]

Hi Mike.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry. You just died.

And I want to say Happy Birthday! You just got born!

And now I want to take a moment of silence because you just died.

But at the same time... I'm glad you just born anew again! How cool is that?

Every single moment you die and get born. You get multiple births all day long, giving you the chance to experience life in a much deep and wholesome manner.

And so we sit because it's when we let go of questions that we can fathom it all.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH/Just died/Happy birthday to me/Just died/Boom! I'm here again!

[Shinshou]

I, too, have a different understanding of rebirth than that of the Buddha. But I have always wondered...I come from a religious background that includes all types of miraculous thinking (and I'm not using that phrase condescendingly, only in the sense that a miracle is something outside the normal laws of nature)...people rising from the dead, speaking languages they don't know, streets of gold... I sometimes wonder, have I dismissed the teaching of actual rebirth/reincarnation from one life to the next because it's not true, or simply because I don't want to be one of "those people" that believe magical things "like that?" I think it's a good question to mull over, especially for us reformed-religion Buddhists. Ultimately, does it matter when I sit zazen? No.

Dan
Sat today

[Khalil Bodhi]

Thank you all for your reasoned replies. Ultimately, taking the Lord Buddha's teachings on rebirth to heart is a helpful tool for me on the Path. In the eyes of the Enlightened Ones, there is no birth or death but, until such time as I develop such an understanding and cross the flood I'll use the raft of this teaching. Wishing you all much happiness and contentment.

"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the breakup of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world.' This is the first assurance one acquires.

"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance one acquires.

"'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance one acquires.

"'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance one acquires."

— Anguttara Nikaya 3.65

with metta,

Mike
st|lah

[Bearshirt Buddhist]

I get the feeling there's a rough consensus against reincarnation among Zen folks, which I find curious. Some of you express a bit of nervousness about the idea. I disagree. I believe we come into this life not as a blank slate, but carrying a lot of things with us, and I don't think death is final. I also wonder if Buddhism minus reincarnation equals therapy? Or is that too reductive?

Theo
Sat today

[Kokuu]

I get the feeling there's a rough consensus against reincarnation among Zen folks, which I find curious. Some of you express a bit of nervousness about the idea.

Hi Theo

I find it is more a case that a lot of Zen folk are happy to have "don't know mind" when it comes to rebirth. I don't find much nervousness around the idea or denial that it is part of early Buddhist doctrine. It is just something that is essentially unknowable for most of us.

I am, however, just a novice priest and my opinions should be taken with a large grain of salt.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Chishou]

Novice priest "What happens after we die?"
Zen master "How should I know?".
Novice "But you're a Zen master?!"
Master "True, but I'm not a dead one".



Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

[Jundo]

I get the feeling there's a rough consensus against reincarnation among Zen folks, which I find curious. Some of you express a bit of nervousness about the idea. I disagree. I believe we come into this life not as a blank slate, but carrying a lot of things with us, and I don't think death is final. I also wonder if Buddhism minus reincarnation equals therapy? Or is that too reductive?

Theo
Sat today

Hi Theo,

I think that there is a consensus among Zen folks, past and present, that what matters most is this life ... and the opportunity for liberation in this moment ... whether or not there are future lives after death. That was true for Dogen and Bodhidharma, it is true for us. For example, in the one piece of writing that scholars believe actually has a likelihood to have been written by Bodhidharma (or a student close to him) there is a clear belief in past lives, yet an emphasis on what happens as our reaction now in that light ...

From "Treatise on the Two Entrances and Four Practices, attributed to Bodhidharma, Translated by John R. McRae

When the practitioner of Buddhist spiritual training experiences suffering, he should think to himself: "For innumerable eons I have wandered through the various states of existence, forsaking the fundamental for the derivative, generating a great deal of enmity and distaste and bringing an unlimited amount of injury and discord upon others. My present suffering constitutes the fruition of my past crimes and karma, rather than anything bequeathed to me from any heavenly or human being. I shall accept it patiently and contentedly, without complaint." ...

Sentient beings have no unchanging self and are entirely subject to the impact of their circumstances. Whether one experiences suffering or pleasure, both are generated from one's circumstances. If one experiences fame, fortune, and other forms of superior karmic retribution, this is the result of past causes. Although one may experience good fortune now, when the circumstances responsible for its present manifestation are exhausted, it will disappear. How could one take joy in good fortune? Since success and failure depend on circumstances, the mind should remain unchanged. It should be unmoved even by the winds of good fortune, but mysteriously in accordance with the Tao. Therefore, this is called the practice of acceptance of circumstances.
https://terebess.hu/zen/bodhidharma-eng.html

So, the pivot point of freedom is here and now, whatever the source of those circumstances.

I do not believe that Buddhism without an emphasis on potential future post-mortem lives is "therapy," because the emphasis remains on ultimate liberation and nothing less, ever being Buddha, ever becoming Buddha, ever actuating Buddha in our words thoughts and acts.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - What is one of the strongest arguments I know for possible post-mortem lives? For me, it is that life happened even once, despite all the seeming odds against it and all the factors ... of physics, chemistry, biology, history and simple chance ... that were necessary for my birth to have happened even once. If such a ridiculous event might have happened once, it ridiculously might as well happen again.

In the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Buddha used the metaphor of a blind turtle in a vast ocean to explain how difficult it is to be reborn as a human being and at the same time to have the chance of hearing the Dharma.

Suppose there is a small piece of wood floating on a vast ocean. The wood has a small hole the size of which is just enough for the head of a turtle to pop into. There is a long-lived sea turtle in the ocean. Once every one hundred years, this turtle comes out from the bottom of the ocean and pops his head into the hole of the wood.

To be able to hear the Dharma is just as hard as for the blind turtle to encounter the small piece of wood on a vast ocean and let its head go through the hole in the wood piece.

[Seishin]

This has been a wonderful thread to follow. Having only been practicing for a year and with limited knowledge, I am now getting a clearer sense of rebirth, to me anyway.

I never subscribed to the rebirth through reincarnation, life after death, heaven & hell scenario but as Jundo often states, if I do little or no harm in this life I guess I'll be OK if I'm wrong.

What I have come to believe in over the last 12 months is that rebirth is a moment by moment experience. Right here right now and the next now. Understanding the different realms, I can recognize my transmigration through them, throughout the day. Its just the daily ups and downs of life and I guess the trick is to be aware and extricate yourself for those damaging realms.

My 2 cents.

On the Firewood & Ash analogy. I also look at it this way.

The firewood burns and creates ash.
Firewood is firewood ash is ash
Ash is also a good fertilizer
Ash as fertilizer allows a tree to grow
Once mature the tree is harvested for firewood
The firewood burns and ................

Is this not rebirth? Just a thought. Too many of them this first week of Ango and Jukai.

Back to my logs.

Std

Toby

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[Eishuu]

I used to believe in reincarnation.

Now I mostly think, I understand so little what this thing called 'life' is so what chance have I of understanding death? I'm never going to 'understand' it from my current dualistic way of thinking. So I feel it's best for me to keep practising to understand/experience this moment fully and hopefully that will take care of it. To be honest, I have a sense that I'm not really 'alive' or 'here' in the way I think I am, so from that point of view I'm kind of already 'dead'.

Toby, I liked what you said about transmigrating the various realms throughout the day. I've noticed my mind doing this more over the last few days, although I hadn't been thinking of it in terms of realms, so that's helpful. My mind seems to be able to fall into them and switch between them rapidly...it's fascinating. It's like it goes off on little adventures...

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH