The True Nature of the Body

[Khalil Bodhi]

I was wondering if there are any discourses or contemplations on the the of loathsomeness of the body in Soto Zen. The Lord Buddha recommended so-called asubha meditations and contemplations like those described in Venerable Samahita Bhikkhu's video here:

https://youtu.be/zHKDVdCizRM

Gassho,

Mike
sat today

[Shinshou]

The way he laughs after he says "flesh on flesh" is classic.

Dan
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Khalil,

The Buddha did not offer the same advice to monastics and to householders on sex. The Buddha knew that if the householders were celibate and not engaged in "out in the world" commercial and other activities, the Sangha (and the whole human race!) would disappear in a generation and their would be no means of economic support of the Sangha.

Also, Indian (so called "Hinayana" Small Vehicle) South Asian Buddhism had an emphasis on rejection and suppression of emotions, disgust with the world and withdrawal from daily life, and rejection of the body and its natural functions (including sexual urges, heard in the video I feel when Bhante Samahita calls the body "ugly pork sausages" and "bags of pus and excrement" and the like) that transformed as Buddhism came north into China, and especially into Japan.

As I spoke about in my "Ango" Talk this week (link), monastics (for obvious reasons) have had a tendency through the centuries to say that monasticism is the only real place of practice. They obviously have reasons to say that, living that lifestyle themselves. However, the historical Buddha never said that (he said the practice out in the world was the harder practice, not impossible), and Zen folks and Mahayana Buddhists in general have always emphasized the possibilities for liberation "out in the world."

In China, with the Mahayana, there was a greater emphasis on transcending and balancing the human desires and emotions rather than rejection and complete cooling (although monastics continue to be celibate), more earthiness and acceptance of this life and the world. On is in the world, feeling and savoring emotions, yet simultaneously seeing beyond, not bound and trapped by this world and its emotions. In Japan, it became even more so, with priests now overwhelmingly married with kids (with the emphasis now on having wholesome, healthy relationships), and Zen's emphasis on realization in this life and in this world. The body is not to be rejected, but honored and treated well. Tibetans also seem to have very mixed attitudes toward sex, sometimes rejecting and sometimes accepting.

So, no, there is no particular practice recommended of sitting, contemplating how loathsome is the body. The body is our temple, to be respected and handled with care. The one exception is, I would think, if someone had a problem of excess such as a sex or porno addiction. In that case, with the lack of balance, excess and other unhealthful aspects, we might encourage someone to think about how loathsome the body is as a counter-measure (besides recommending that they seek psychological counseling for the mental issues involved). When young trainees are in the monastery (usually for only a period of a few months to a couple of years), they are expected to be celibate (in theory). Like boot camp in the military, it is cold shower time. However, outside the monastery, priests date and marry.

The question of porno is difficult, and my Dharma Bro. Brad Warner has written about it sometimes with former porn actress (and daughter of the late noted Zen Teachers from the San Francisco Zen Center, Blanche and Lou Hartman, where she was raised) Nina Hartley

https://www.suicidegirls.com/girls/erin_broadley/blog/2679974/nina-hartley/

The point Nina (who was apparently a porn actress for many years) and Brad make is that being a "sex worker" is a voluntary choice for many in the industry, and not always a situation of abuse and economic oppression as many describe. In many countries outside the US, prostitution is more accepted and often regulated. I do not know if I accept these arguments myself. I recently watched two documentaries called "After Porn" of interviews with former actors and actresses in the adult film business, and they seem to have very mixed feelings about what they did, not negative for many. However, I tend to think that the situation is not so clear for less "elite" people in the industry (and even for many of them), especially at the lower ends of the sex industry. Prostitution, the world's oldest profession, existed in Buddha's day, Dogen's day and exists in modern Asia (Thailand, for example, one of the world's most Buddhist countries, is also a country with a very open sex industry). In some of the old Suttas, Buddha seems to accept financial support from working concubines and such, while accepting their profession without particular moral judgment.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/am/ambapaalii.htm

Chinese Master Shengyen touches on this in footnote 6 here ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=8PI-WPJd4aIC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=buddha+on+prostitution+sutta&source=bl&ots=vkwfl4lMic&sig=r7Qln7hMM669d8C5jJYf_mCiYKE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDmbf4r6DWAhWBQZQKHTLPDegQ6AEIUDAJ#v=onepage&q=buddha%20on%20prostitution%20sutta&f=false

My own feeling is that, while human sexual need is not to be rejected, it must be handled like fire (good for light and cooking when properly handled, but easy to burn one if out of control). I believe that some sex workers may be there by choice and free will, and not find their profession abusive, but perhaps the vast majority are subject to abuse, violence, human trafficking, drugs and other addictions and the like, and that is wrong.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - I too chuckled when Bhante Samahita called sex "bacon bungy jumping"

[Khalil Bodhi]

The True Nature of the Body

Hi Khalil,

The Buddha did not offer the same advice to monastics and to householders on sex. The Buddha knew that if the householders were celibate and not engaged in "out in the world" commercial and other activities, the Sangha (and the whole human race!) would disappear in a generation and their would be no means of economic support of the Sangha.

Also, Indian (so called "Hinayana" Small Vehicle) South Asian Buddhism had an emphasis on rejection and suppression of emotions, disgust with the world and withdrawal from daily life, and rejection of the body and its natural functions (including sexual urges) that transformed as Buddhism came north into China, and especially into Japan.

As I spoke about in my "Ango" Talk this week, monastics (for obvious reasons) have had a tendency through the centuries to say that monasticism is the only real place of practice. They obviously have reasons to say that, living that lifestyle themselves. However, the historical Buddha never said that (he said the practice out in the world was the harder practice, not impossible), and Zen folks and Mahayana Buddhism in general have always emphasized the possibilities for liberation "out in the world."

In China, with the Mahayana, there was a greater emphasis on transcending and balancing the human desires and emotions rather than rejection and complete cooling (although monastics continue to be celibate), more earthiness and acceptance of this life and the world. In Japan, it became even more so, with priests now overwhelmingly married with kids (with the emphasis now on wholesome, healthy relationships), and Zen's emphasis on realization in this life and in this world. The body is not to be rejected, but honored and treated well. Tibetans also seem to have very mixed attitudes toward sex, sometimes rejecting and sometimes accepting.

So, no, there is no particular practice recommended of sitting, contemplating how loathsome is the body. The body is our temple, to be respected and handled with care. The one exception is, I would think, if someone had a problem of excess such as a sex or porno addiction. In that case, with the lack of balance, excess and other unhealthful aspects, we might encourage someone to think about how loathsome the body is as a counter-measure (besides recommending that they seek psychological counseling for the mental issues involved). When young trainees are in the monastery (usually for only a period of a few months to a couple of years), they are expected to be celibate (in theory). Like boot camp in the military, it is cold shower time. However, outside the monastery, priests date and marry.

The question of porno is difficult, and my Dharma Bro. Brad Warner has written about it sometimes with former porn actress (and daughter of the late noted Zen Teachers from the San Francisco Zen Center, Blanche and Lou Hartman, where she was raised) Nina Hartley

https://www.suicidegirls.com/girls/erin_broadley/blog/2679974/nina-hartley/

The point Nina (who was apparently a porn actress for many years) and Brad make is that being a "sex worker" is a voluntary choice for many in the industry, and not always a situation of abuse and economic oppression as many describe. In many countries outside the US, prostitution is more accepted and often regulated. I do not know if I accept these arguments myself. I recently watched two documentaries called "After Porn" of interviews with former actors and actresses in the adult film business, and they seem to have very mixed feelings about what they did, not negative for many. However, I tend to think that the situation is not so clear for less "elite" people in the industry (and even for many of them), especially at the lower ends of the sex industry. Prostitution, the world's oldest profession, existed in Buddha's day, Dogen's day and exists in modern Asia (Thailand, for example, one of the world's most Buddhist countries, is also a country with a very open sex industry). In some of the old Suttas, Buddha seems to accept financial support from working concubines and such, while accepting their profession without particular moral judgment.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/am/ambapaalii.htm

Chinese Master Shengyen touches on this in footnote 6 here ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=8PI-WPJd4aIC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=buddha+on+prostitution+sutta&source=bl&ots=vkwfl4lMic&sig=r7Qln7hMM669d8C5jJYf_mCiYKE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDmbf4r6DWAhWBQZQKHTLPDegQ6AEIUDAJ#v=onepage&q=buddha%20on%20prostitution%20sutta&f=false

My own feeling is that, while human sexual need is not to be rejected, it must be handled like fire (good for light and cooking when properly handled, but easy to burn one if out of control). I believe that some sex workers may be there by choice and free will, and not find their profession abusive, but perhaps the vast majority are subject to abuse, violence, human trafficking, drugs and other addictions and the like, and that is wrong.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thank you Rev. Jundo for you thoughtful reply. For myself, I find the asubha practices as presented in Theravada to be extremely helpful as one perspective amongst many to be picked up, used and put down again add conditions and circumstances warrant. I was wondering if Soto Zen had its own spin on them. That it doesn't is no issue at all.

Gassho,

Mike
Sat Today / LaH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Byokan]

This is interesting, and I think contemplating the body goes beyond sex as well. Realizing that we are a "skin bag," subject to the same arising and passing away that all things are, is, I think, part of realizing one's true nature. Pleasure, pain, illness, all the things we experience in the body, and our reactions to them, are part of practice, even just the itch that drives you crazy when you're sitting. Hopefully a comprehension of oneness helps dissolve the perception of either loathsomeness or holiness, repulsion or attraction, toward an experience of... just what is?

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Joyo]

This was a simple topic for my mother to talk to me about it was just no, no, no, no, stay away from it, it's bad, and cover your body up so men can't lust after you because that is a shame. lol!! With my own kids close to approaching the teenage year, I would like to give a more realistic view, because that approach is very unhealthy.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this Jundo as they are way more realistic and following the middle way.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Jundo]

It is very interesting to me, near the end after walking through all those beautiful mountains, where he says that (paraphrase, about 24:00) "Even attachment to this beautiful nature, "nature porn", has to be relinquished. It is merely a nice stepping stone."

Zen folks always have traditionally appreciated mother nature and human nature, while seeing through to True Nature, in nature and savoring nature yet not bound by our worst aspects and excesses of human nature. We find True Nature in the green hills or in the noisy marketplace. Personally, for my Buddhist Practice, I like that better than trying to leave all sense experiences and emotional reactions behind. I am happy to be human, so long as I am also (as Zen folks say) realizing the "True Person of No Rank, coming in and out of these senses").

As Byokan says above, "a comprehension of oneness helps dissolve the perception of either loathsomeness or holiness, repulsion or attraction, toward an experience of... just what is ..."

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - The Last of the famous Ten Oxherding Picture, the Zen adept's Return to the Marketplace ...

[Sekishi]

This is interesting, and I think contemplating the body goes beyond sex as well. Realizing that we are a "skin bag," subject to the same arising and passing away that all things are, is, I think, part of realizing one's true nature. Pleasure, pain, illness, all the things we experience in the body, and our reactions to them, are part of practice, even just the itch that drives you crazy when you're sitting. Hopefully a comprehension of oneness helps dissolve the perception of either loathsomeness or holiness, repulsion or attraction, toward an experience of... just what is?

And yet somehow this skinbag is how the ineffable manifests in this moment. What a wonderful mystery!

Deep bows to all,
Sekishi #sat

[Jishin]

Hi,

It is a basic human drive. All have it. Without it, no Buddha.

It's not a problem unless it's a problem. Just like everything else. If it takes away from day to day participation in life then maybe it's not the way. That said, one may have a very high biological sex drive. This is not optional. It is what it is. Simple biology. An evolutional advantage until recently. Libidinal impulses will be discharged. Porn addiction vs discharge of libidinal drives some other way? Some other way could be an affair with your wife. Take your pick.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS: I doubt all the monks suppressed their libidinal drive in the monestary. It's just the way it is.

[Jundo]

PS: I doubt all the monks suppressed their libidinal drive in the monestary. It's just the way it is.

There was, throughout Asia, a lot more "bending the rules" (and bending over of the monks ) then we recognize. It may have been a "technical" violation of the Vinaya Rules, but probably throughout history people tended to look the other way.

For example, I just read this about Tibet ...

Homosexuality, Marriage, and Religion in Tibet: An Endlessly Complicated Situation

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/homosexuality-marriage-and-religion-tibet-endlessly-complicated-situation/

... Even [the Vinaya] isn’t a particularly reliable source for sussing out the root of the Dalai Lama’s or other monk’s notions about proper sexual conduct, because actually most of these ideas come not from Vinaya directly but from later (sometimes much, much later) commentaries by authorative monks of the Indo-Tibetan tradition. Few of these texts are available in English. Furthermore, monks as a practical matter don’t typically follow the Vinaya itself, but focus instead on the codes of conduct of their particular monasteries, which not only diverge significantly from the Vinaya but are different from monastery to monastery. And to top it all off, much of your average Tibetan’s attitudes are derived from general cultural wisdom about such things, in the same manner that your average Westerner is influenced not merely by ancient religious texts but a whole stew of culturally-conditioned “common sense” notions, pop culture trends, regional orientations, and so on.

But what can we say about monks and homosexuality? Gay monks were common in traditional Tibet (and every other Buddhist culture) and were an accepted part of society, without there being any legal form of “gay marriage” or indeed any modern concept of “homosexual orientation.” We can see this for instance in the public popularity of drombos. Drombo is a Tibetan term for a passive homosexual partner, often someone in a close relationship with a monk. Tibetan socio-religious attitudes considered penetration to be unacceptable violation of monastic celibacy rules, whether or not the persons involved were same or opposite gender. So the commonly-accepted workaround was for a monk to form a relationship with a drombo, who might be a younger monk or someone from the society at large (the dancers of the Dalai Lama’s personal troupe were considered especially desirable as drombo). Instead of oral or anal sex in the usual Western mode, drombo and their monastic patrons engaged in a modified form of the missionary position–the drombo lay on his back with his thighs crossed, and the monk ejaculated by moving his penis back and forth between them. No penetration, hence no violation of the rules.

Far from being an underground practice, this was a socially accepted form of interaction between males, and had no relationship to sexual or personal identity as such. While the monks in the active roles were frequently gay in the sense that Westerners now understand the term, the drombo himself often had no sexual attraction to men. Rather, the drombo received patronage from the monk, something very important in the heirarchical society of traditional Tibet. A drombo became the ward of his patron and would often receive substantial benefit to his career and status through this association (i.e. a “heterosexual” male drombo serving as a passive homosexual partner received not stigma but overt social benefit). That drombos were steered through Tibetan social circles by their patrons demonstrates the entirely above-the-board nature of these same-sex relationships: everyone knew that the drombo was being supported by monk so-and-so precisely because he was a drombo, and this was seen as perfectly natural. In fact, sometimes a drombo would become so well-known as a lover that various high-placed monks would fight over him, even sending subordinate warrior monks (dobdobs) out to kidnap him in order to force the drombo to switch to a new patron.

In Japan, a very similar story ...

http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol3/homosexuality.html

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jishin]

Well, dry humping makes for a good story but that's not what happened. We will go this far but no further... [emoji33]

Anyway, time to tackle the day! [emoji2]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Shinshou]

"Tibetan socio-religious attitudes considered penetration to be unacceptable violation of monastic celibacy rules, whether or not the persons involved were same or opposite gender. So the commonly-accepted workaround was for a monk to form a relationship with a drombo, who might be a younger monk or someone from the society at large (the dancers of the Dalai Lama’s personal troupe were considered especially desirable as drombo). Instead of oral or anal sex in the usual Western mode, drombo and their monastic patrons engaged in a modified form of the missionary position–the drombo lay on his back with his thighs crossed, and the monk ejaculated by moving his penis back and forth between them. No penetration, hence no violation of the rules."

Wow. After that description I believe my porn addiction has been cured for good.

Dan
Sat today

[Jundo]

"Tibetan socio-religious attitudes considered penetration to be unacceptable violation of monastic celibacy rules, whether or not the persons involved were same or opposite gender. So the commonly-accepted workaround was for a monk to form a relationship with a drombo, who might be a younger monk or someone from the society at large (the dancers of the Dalai Lama’s personal troupe were considered especially desirable as drombo). Instead of oral or anal sex in the usual Western mode, drombo and their monastic patrons engaged in a modified form of the missionary position–the drombo lay on his back with his thighs crossed, and the monk ejaculated by moving his penis back and forth between them. No penetration, hence no violation of the rules."

Wow. After that description I believe my porn addiction has been cured for good.

Dan
Sat today

Hmmm. I do not think that we should make fun of or criticize how someone chooses to make love in any way, and that was not my intent. The point was merely that not all monks have been celibate over the centuries, and some have found ingenious ways to escape technical violations of the rules.

I think it very good, in my view anyway, that Japanese monks can now marry (similar to the change in Christianity when Protestant clergy could marry unlike the Catholic priests). And if someone wishes to be celibate, I believe that is good for them, and they should walk that Path.

By the way, unfortunately, in these current times, I do not think it would generally be socially accepted for a Japanese Buddhist priest to openly be homosexual or otherwise LGBT, and Gay Marriage is still a dream here in Japan (some local governments have taken a few small steps in that direction). It is possible that temple parishioners would accept an LGBT priest if they knew him/her very well, and if he/she was discreet in behavior. But, by and large, Japan still is very conservative in such matters, and there would be much pressure on the priest to keep it secret.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shinshou]

Hmmm. I do not think that we should make fun of or criticize how someone chooses to make love in any way, and that was not my intent. The point was merely that not all monks have been celibate over the centuries, and some have found ingenious ways to escape technical violations of the rules.

I think it very good, in my view anyway, that Japanese monks can now marry (similar to the change in Christianity when Protestant clergy could marry unlike the Catholic priests). And if someone wishes to be celibate, I believe that is good for them, and they should walk that Path.

By the way, unfortunately, in these current times, I do not think it would generally be socially accepted for a Japanese Buddhist priest to openly be homosexual, and Gay Marriage is still a dream here in Japan (some local governments have taken a few small steps in that direction). It is possible that temple parishioners would accept a gay priest if they knew him very well, and if he was discreet in the relationship. But, by and large, Japan still is very conservative in such matters, and there would be much pressure on the priest to keep it secret.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

It wasn't my intent either to "make fun" (and if anyone was offended, I sincerely apologize)...only that was quite a graphic description. I actually occasionally attend a Christian church that I respect and support, mainly for their advocacy for the disadvantaged, minorities, and the LGBTQ community.

Dan
Sat today

[Jishin]

I think one Supreme Court Judge clearly defined pornography as:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

Some things are just hard to figure out.

Gassho, Jishin, ST