VR not as a way to 'sit together in a shared virtual space' but as 'playing games to shut down the ordinary mind'. https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/can-...enlightenment/
Gassho,
Roland
SatToday
Gassho,
Roland
SatToday
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Hi Roland,
The VR project was inspired by an acid trip. There are people who believe that smoking weed has the same effect as meditation too. The main problem I see is that they are focusing on a mental state and there's no wisdom. Traditional spirituality is a mental state leading to wisdom. If there's a one having such an experience, there's still a one. There's no unity with the surroundings.
Don't get stuck in any state as nothing is permanent.
Gassho,
Geerish.
ST.Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here. -
Hi,
I have read about this too. Looks iffy at best. People here in our western culture are always trying to get peace of mind the fast way. Whether is'ts by apps, drugs, video games, music... we want to be at peace and enlightened in 10 minutes or less.
But all those are shortcuts that stray away from a deep and disciplined spiritual practice.
Would I try the VR thingy? Sure, looks fun. But to me, Dogen and all our Teachers were not mistaken. Zazen is our supreme practice because it's not fast, not easy and you simply don't achieve anything with it
Gassho,
Kyonin
Sat/LAHHondō Kyōnin
奔道 協忍Comment
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Interesting. But then again, one can imagine using VR or drugs in a similar mindset of 'achieving nothing'. As the post explains, there are Buddhist traditions which incorporate focus on images, so it's not such a big jump to turn those images into VR-images.Hi,
I have read about this too. Looks iffy at best. People here in our western culture are always trying to get peace of mind the fast way. Whether is'ts by apps, drugs, video games, music... we want to be at peace and enlightened in 10 minutes or less.
But all those are shortcuts that stray away from a deep and disciplined spiritual practice.
Would I try the VR thingy? Sure, looks fun. But to me, Dogen and all our Teachers were not mistaken. Zazen is our supreme practice because it's not fast, not easy and you simply don't achieve anything with it
Gassho,
Kyonin
Sat/LAH
Is it bad to be at peace in a faster way? Not necessarily, I think. Maybe ´just sitting' does not want to achieve being somehow at peace, but even in this Sangha I feel we're rather happy encountering some 'blue sky' every now and then, even when we also acknowledge ´the clouds'.
I also think that there are good and bad ways to enhance meditation with ´special means' - I don't feel inclined to use drugs, but I'd love to experiment with VR. If ever there were healthy and legal drugs in this context, I'd try those too.
Gassho
Roland
SatToday/LAHLast edited by Roland; 07-24-2017, 10:50 PM.Comment
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The issue I see with this is that zazen is about experiencing the moment in our perceived reality. Using VR to mimic a meditative state removes the experiencing our percieved reality portion of it. Any state you "achieve" would be short lived. It would also likely create dependency. As in "I can not reach this state without the VR."
This being said I would surely try it once.
James
SAT
Sent from my SM-G920V using TapatalkComment
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I read this earlier today. I've made my entire career in the high tech industry. I've been on the bleeding edge of many trends but I am getting tired of technology. It is a tool at best but if this is the direction that Zazen/meditation is going then I'll get off the bus here. One of the aspects of Zazen I enjoy and appreciate is its simplicity. Zen without toys!
Gassho
Warren
Sat today泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful WoodsComment
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Not really My only point is that I'd love to try it out. Until now I thought VR would ´just' be a way to share a same space, say Jundo's Zendo, in a virtual way - it could enable us to immerse ourselves in that place rather than just seeing it in 2D on a flat screen.
The article (and some experiences I already had with VR) made me realize yet another application: being immersed in abstract geometrical patterns and maybe sounds inducing you into a meditation-like state.
Gassho
SatToday
RolandComment
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I fully get your point. Simplicity is what I love. But then again, while sitting I still wear my glasses as I'm very near-sighted. What would be the difference if these would be light-weight goggles? Still very simple, if the tech evolves enough into that direction - which it does.
Gassho
Roland
SatToday (without goggles)Comment
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My first impression is that this is precisely why Shikantaza is -not- meditation.
In "meditation," one typically seeks to obtain some special state, such as a feeling of peace (I recommend valium as quicker), visions, energies, deep deep concentrated states of transcendence or god or cosmic unity.
Shikantaza radically seeks nothing.
One simply sits, radically to the marrow seeking nothing apart from the wholeness and fulfillment of all desires which is sitting itself.
In doing so, a funny thing happens however:
One thus comes to embody a Peace which holds all of life's feelings of peace and conflict, and is thus much more profound then simply feeling peaceful when one feels "peaceful". (Hard to describe, but it is a Big P Peace so Peaceful that one does not even need to feel peaceful to have it. It is present even when, in life, one feels anything but ordinary valium "peaceful". It is somehow present on the battlefield or in the surgical waiting room when one is feeling anything but content and peaceful. To wish to feel human small "p" peaceful all the time, 24/7, is a fool's errand and dead end away from life ... seriously, just try heroine if that is what one wants (many do).
Anything that seeks merely to feel "peaceful" is a child's toy or a narcotic. Much of Buddhism and other Eastern Practices chases enlightenment far ... sometimes lifetimes ... away because folks do not sit in the wholeness and completion of this. They seek "peace", but fail to know the Peace of not seeking and no need to seek.
Without need for any visions, deep states or experiences of transcendence, senations of the sacred, magical or miraculous ... BECAUSE of the very dropping of all hunting and search for such thrills ... one comes to know a Transcendence by which the so-called "ordinary" is most Sacred and Magical and Miraculous without any fireworks or hollywood special effects. I do not know if this is "God", right in in the tables, flat tires, stubbed toes and medical traumas of life ... but in my bone, if there is a God and "cosmic unity", such cannot be but so.
Would you like to make a VR machine that teaches such profound lesson ... a VR machine that does not simply continue to feed our present modern hunger for flashing effects and electronic thrills and brain stimulation? ...
... Then simply unplug the VR machine and "Just Sit". Truly nothing more is needed (and the more one thinks that "something more is needed", then the more that one is distant due to that very hunger and need).
Our way is also the Greatest Game & Joke!
Gassho, J
SatTodayLAHLast edited by Jundo; 07-25-2017, 12:37 PM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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A religion of games
Thanks for the explanation. The kids have a VR set at home for video games that is a lot of fun but they still prefer 2D video games. Punks! [emoji4]Not really My only point is that I'd love to try it out. Until now I thought VR would ´just' be a way to share a same space, say Jundo's Zendo, in a virtual way - it could enable us to immerse ourselves in that place rather than just seeing it in 2D on a flat screen.
The article (and some experiences I already had with VR) made me realize yet another application: being immersed in abstract geometrical patterns and maybe sounds inducing you into a meditation-like state.
Gassho
SatToday
Roland
Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_Comment
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Thank you Jundo. I will plug out, but only to plug in again. If ever I get deep insights in those artificial paradises, you guys will be the first to know.My first impression is that this is precisely why Shikantaza is -not- meditation.
In "meditation," one typically seeks to obtain some special state, such as a feeling of peace (I recommend valium as quicker), visions, energies, deep deep concentrated states of transcendence or god or cosmic unity.
Shikantaza radically seeks nothing.
One simply sits, radically to the marrow seeking nothing apart from the wholeness and fulfillment of all desires which is sitting itself.
In doing so, a funny thing happens however:
One thus comes to embody a Peace which holds all of life's feelings of peace and conflict, and is thus much more profound then simply feeling peaceful when one feels "peaceful". (Hard to describe, but it is a Big P Peace so Peaceful that one does not even need to feel peaceful to have it. It is present even when, in life, one feels anything but ordinary valium "peaceful". It is somehow present on the battlefield or in the surgical waiting room when one is feeling anything but content and peaceful. To wish to feel human small "p" peaceful all the time, 24/7, is a fool's errand and dead end away from life ... seriously, just try heroine if that is what one wants (many do).
Anything that seeks merely to feel "peaceful" is a child's toy or a narcotic. Much of Buddhism and other Eastern Practices chases enlightenment far ... sometimes lifetimes ... away because folks do not sit in the wholeness and completion of this. They seek "peace", but fail to know the Peace of not seeking and no need to seek.
Without need for any visions, deep states or experiences of transcendence, senations of the sacred, magical or miraculous ... BECAUSE of the very dropping of all hunting and search for such thrills ... one comes to know a Transcendence by which the so-called "ordinary" is most Sacred and Magical and Miraculous without any fireworks or hollywood special effects. I do not know if this is "God", right in in the tables, flat tires, stubbed toes and medical traumas of life ... but in my bone, if there is a God and "cosmic unity", such cannot be but so.
Would you like to make a VR machine that teaches such profound lesson ... a VR machine that does not simply continue to feed our present modern hunger for flashing effects and electronic thrills and brain stimulation? ...
... Then simply unplug the VR machine and "Just Sit". Truly nothing more is needed (and the more one thinks that "something more is needed", then the more that one is distant due to that very hunger and need).
Our way is also the Greatest Game & Joke!
Gassho, J
SatTodayLAH
Gassho,
Roland
SatTodayComment
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Hi Roland,
Please do. Shikantaza has nothing against experimenting or working with any of this. Once one rises from the cushion, one can do anything from eat a sandwich to go to a baseball game, go to Church or put on a headset. All good, many insights to gain. (In fact, I am just reading a book on some recent scholarly research on psilocybin for folks with cancer. I am not even totally against moderate use of psychedelics, with guidance, at certain times in life).
However, none of that is Shikantaza.
When sitting Shikantaza, just sit Shikantaza ... the one and only action to do or needed in the whole boundless universe in that instant. Put down the sandwich and the headset, sober up from the shrooms and face the wall.
So long as one is sitting Shikantaza each day with nothing more needed, I am not so concerned what healthy activities one engages in the rest of one's day. I hope you do gain insights, and will report to us if so. I also believe that there are many insights to be gained in Shikantaza very easy to overlook in so-called "meditation" or by trying to reach some special state and "get" something. Only by stopping to seek a "special state" does one get the most special state of Shikantaza.
Gassho, J
SatTodayLAHLast edited by Jundo; 07-25-2017, 01:27 PM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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In my twenties I took LSD on top of a mountain during a snowstorm. I became a mountain lion and the moon was extremely bright. The next day I fell going down and sprained my ankle. I ate lunch at McDonalds. The next Monday I went to class and heard a lecture. My wife and I had an argument that night. And so it goes.
Gassho
Meishin
sat todayComment
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Thank you Jundo.My first impression is that this is precisely why Shikantaza is -not- meditation.
In "meditation," one typically seeks to obtain some special state, such as a feeling of peace (I recommend valium as quicker), visions, energies, deep deep concentrated states of transcendence or god or cosmic unity.
Shikantaza radically seeks nothing.
One simply sits, radically to the marrow seeking nothing apart from the wholeness and fulfillment of all desires which is sitting itself.
In doing so, a funny thing happens however:
One thus comes to embody a Peace which holds all of life's feelings of peace and conflict, and is thus much more profound then simply feeling peaceful when one feels "peaceful". (Hard to describe, but it is a Big P Peace so Peaceful that one does not even need to feel peaceful to have it. It is present even when, in life, one feels anything but ordinary valium "peaceful". It is somehow present on the battlefield or in the surgical waiting room when one is feeling anything but content and peaceful. To wish to feel human small "p" peaceful all the time, 24/7, is a fool's errand and dead end away from life ... seriously, just try heroine if that is what one wants (many do).
Anything that seeks merely to feel "peaceful" is a child's toy or a narcotic. Much of Buddhism and other Eastern Practices chases enlightenment far ... sometimes lifetimes ... away because folks do not sit in the wholeness and completion of this. They seek "peace", but fail to know the Peace of not seeking and no need to seek.
Without need for any visions, deep states or experiences of transcendence, senations of the sacred, magical or miraculous ... BECAUSE of the very dropping of all hunting and search for such thrills ... one comes to know a Transcendence by which the so-called "ordinary" is most Sacred and Magical and Miraculous without any fireworks or hollywood special effects. I do not know if this is "God", right in in the tables, flat tires, stubbed toes and medical traumas of life ... but in my bone, if there is a God and "cosmic unity", such cannot be but so.
Would you like to make a VR machine that teaches such profound lesson ... a VR machine that does not simply continue to feed our present modern hunger for flashing effects and electronic thrills and brain stimulation? ...
... Then simply unplug the VR machine and "Just Sit". Truly nothing more is needed (and the more one thinks that "something more is needed", then the more that one is distant due to that very hunger and need).
Our way is also the Greatest Game & Joke!
Gassho, J
SatTodayLAH
I never thaught about Shikantaza vs meditation until now.
This is worth thinking about some more, it might make an important difference.
It is a wonderful evening for that.
Gassho
Marcus
SatToday流道
Ryū DouComment
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