Thanks for this Jundo. What I got from the story was that the actions done with the purest intent were more important than the arguments with words. However, I see what you are saying. What has happened to me personally is that with pratice, I am not bothered if people take unnecessary credit of something they haven't done.
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Thanks guys,
I think my take away here is to consider the following points:
1. Will it do any good?
2. Will it just make me more angry?
3. If I should leave the person out and focus on the action or attitude. Which is borne of karma.
4. If someone accuses me of fathering a child I best ask for a paternity test. If I leave it up to the gods she might lose the front of her feet and get swallowed up by the earth. Seems like a bodhisattva would probably want to prevent that.
Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki
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Hi,
I was thinking about that story and I think in a way it's a dramatization of the bodhisattva path. Hakuin is just doing his thing but he is brought into the sphere of someone else's self created problem ( I recognize it takes two to tango.)
The child is the fruit of girls and fishermens karmic action. Like all karmic fruit it can cause further dukka or it can be treated with compassion and wisdom and lead to insight or least less dukka. Hakuin, instead of denying the child or kicking up a fuss looks after the child with compassion and equanimity. Hakuin's behaviour demonstrates how to handle our problems. We don't try to push them away we try to work with them compassionately. Each problem is an opportunity if we have the clarity to see it.
Or something like that.
Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki
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I will say that we all ... me too ... worry about, argue, debate, try to refute much too much. The universe of internet blog, facebook and forum (including this one sometimes) comment sections is a testament to that!
One clear Zen message is that, unless it is something truly important, let much of it go. Hard to say what is worth talking about, and what not, but it would be a more peaceful world if we did have the attitude of just smiling and keeping silent more.
There are issues about society and politics that are worth talking about (e.g., "What is good for national health care policy?" "When do we use the military?" "How do we improve fight poverty?") but not most of what passes for political discourse and "debate" these days (people shouting invective and "talking points" at each other).
One also can't please everyone (I learned this in establishing Treeleaf, where many folks like what we are doing here, and others think that an online Sangha is an scam or abomination that will be the end of Buddhism!
) Everyone has opinions, one has to simply learn from the constructive ones, be sincere to one's own effort, try to do something good and let the rest of the grumblers just grumble.
I sometimes used to go on the internet like Don Quixote, trying to put things right, set opinions straight, leaving no story or lie unchallenged. I still do in some cases if I feel really important (right now I am defending on a Zen facebook group people who practice Soto Zen as Christians from others who say that it is wrong for them to do so), but not so much.
Hakuin, "Mr. Is That So", had opinions. BOY did he have opinions, and could engage in some name calling when he wanted too, calling those he thought deserved it as "idiots, fools, morons" and the like when he got going ... one disagreed with him at their own risk (same with Dogen and many others).
Anyway, that is my opinion on opinions: Tread lightly, speaking mostly only when really important, don't get angry, try to speak civilly when one has to speak, let much of it go ... but don't overlook real injustice.
(And if you disagree with what I wrote, let's not argue about it!
)
Gassho, J
SatTodayLAHLast edited by Jundo; 07-24-2017, 02:04 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hi Hoseki,
I guess I'm wrong about this but I never discuss anything in social media, unless the conversation is with friends or relatives. It's simple, really.
Gassho,
Kyonin
Sat/LAHLast edited by Kyonin; 07-25-2017, 03:33 PM. Reason: Corrected terrible English with horrible English :)Hondō Kyōnin
奔道 協忍Comment
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It can be hard to know where to draw the line. Once, I told a Cousin to be careful about what he is reading because the writer likes sensationalism and I provided a few links to justify this. Eventually, the young lad got angry saying that it's just a book and other relatives said that everyone is entitled to an opinion.
The point is people will see what they want to see. It takes practice to have the obsever's approach. Traditionally, meditation makes one have that observer approach and the observer becomes the observed too. That's something else. I don't try to change people now. If they are ready and talk, I suggest things.
Gassho,
ST. LAH.Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.Comment
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Speaking as one of those fools, I couldn't agree more with Zenmei. Facebook's not the forum for in-depth discussion. It's an incubation unit for misunderstandings, bad feelings, even broken friendships.
For me a bigger question, and a very hard one, is dealing with the 'not speaking of the faults of others' and right speech precept when others don't. The precepts are individual teachers, perhaps, or flashlights and maps. Being mindful of right speech shows you how much of human interraction is about flippant or harmful or self-serving talk. In a competitive or work situation, how do you keep the precepts when others are playing bareknuckle?
Gassho, Sat.Last edited by Tom; 08-08-2017, 04:22 AM.Comment
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Hi Tom,
I can really relate to this comment. Many of my friends are also work colleagues and they delight in criticising various managers and senior managers behind their back. When I don't join in (or worse still, offer a more balanced view) there's a sense that I'm no longer welcome... spoiling everyone's fun.
It's one of those precepts where, while most people would agree with the concept in principle, many of the same people also feel it's "human" to have a little gossip sometimes. I'd like to think my decision to sit quietly might make them reflect on their unkind words, even if it can make me unpopular in that moment.
Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat LAH援若Comment
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Hi guys,
These comments really resonate with me as well. I often try to ask people about their position but the barbs and jabs along the way can be overwhelming. Enjaku, I don't say much when people are being harsh in their gossip. Sometimes I try to offer counter points but most of the time I don't say anything (which in itself can be problematic for those around me.)
Gassho
Sattoday
HosekiComment
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Thanks Enjaku. It's actually driving me quite mad. I've worked (and work) in different gossip-driven industries. Plus everyday chit-chat, anthropologists say, is part of what makes us human. There's even a Zen YouTube clip (I think Rochester Zen Center), about gossip being an ancient human accountability mechanism. Who's hoarding, who's not? Who's claiming status they don't deserve or haven't earned? Who's not. And yet we (buddhists) aren't supposed to do it. Then again, think about the internal dialogue it creates about Buddhism and what your true values are and what you want them to be? Just driving me batty.
Tom
Gassho, LAT.Comment
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Hi Tom, I hope you don't mind me weighing in on this but I studied anthropology and archaeology at Uni and I don't remember anything about gossip being part of what makes us human. It sounds quite possibly like speculation - there's no archaeological evidence to support this about ancient humans as far as I know. Communication is definitely thought to be a vital part of what makes us human, with the development of the vocal chords and a larger brain allowing for complex language - all of that is what allows for social interaction and the development of community and culture. It's possible that gossip may have been important then but who knows? I wouldn't go as far as to say it's what makes us human though - that's just my opinion. Personally I do think there's a strong impulse to gossip that's probably driven by the ego. I often experience a strong urge to gossip and a resistance to not doing it. I notice when I do feel like gossiping it does feel a bit ego driven - like I want to make myself feel better. When I feel content I am much less likely to do it.
It must be really hard working in gossip driven industries.
Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAHComment
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I'm in favor of sharing our unique points of view and experiences; when received in an open atmosphere this is a wonderful expression of our diversity (the dharmas are boundless). I'm not in favor of indulging and broadcasting the productions of Monkey Mind, which is something comment sections on the internet is encouraging to a dangerous degree. One of the fruits of practice is discernment.
Faithmoon
STsat today!Comment
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For me, the hardest thing about dealing with people who say or do awful things is remembering that *there is no way I am going to change what they do or say*. It frustrates me to no end sometimes, but I have to keep taking myself back to the realization that I don't agree with their actions or words, but that's my opinion. I can commiserate with others as to the "wrongness" of the words/actions (i.e. "Isn't what 'x' is doing awful? Can you believe it?") but....again....doesn't change a thing. I can argue with that person, cajole them, fight them.....but still, it won't change them. In fact, there's always the possibility that *I'm* the one that's wrong (at least from their point of view). They won't get me to change either.
So where does that take me? I get angry, frustrated, confused, whatever....I note it, express it to myself (or my wife) so that I don't explode from keeping it bottled up.....and then I move on. I *try* (try being the operative word!) to find a sort of balance: if I know that someone's behavior is frustrating, if they destroy, I will seek to build up....that sort of thing. I have to remind myself that I just can't push on a rope.
My goal, something I'm always working on, is to recognize what frustrates me about what people say and do....and do what I can to promote what I perceive as right and good without being obnoxious. And not to do awful things to try and achieve good things (like arguing with people, etc).
My 2 cents, anyway.
Gassho--
--JimH (SatToday!)Comment
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Hi Lucy, late reply. In terms of 'what makes us human', telling stories certainly does. And what else to talk about but other humans? I live in a big, Southeast Asian country and have often traveled and hung out in villages. The dominant topic of conversation in those places is often about other villagers. Who has what, what did so and so get up to? Just one example.
Somewhere in these teachings is a reference to gossip and right speech. The teacher says that it was an ancient form of accountability. In small-scale societies, it might be who's sharing, who's not, who's hoarding, who's not pulling their weight, and perhaps, most importantly, how much support is their for the skiver to be punished?
Now I just now googled this link on gossip in the discipline of anthropology. The article argues anthropologists have only recently started taking gossip seriously, although the citations start at 1963 and end at 1996.
The discussion's fascinating.Gossip is a game, undertaken by members of a social group in order to maintain the coherence and unity of that group. When people gossip about each other, and about outsiders, they make ethical judgements about behaviour and maintain their group’s social values. At the same time, gossip is a means of social control: it polices acceptable behaviour and reinforces the values and demands of the dominant group.Here's another article about how Inuits might've dealt with a psychopath: he or she would've been pushed off the ice. But there surely would've been a conversation about whether or not he deserved it.Gossip is good for you. Perhaps it is the development and equivalence of mutual grooming among other primate species, and that human language evolved precisely for this purpose: to soothe, reassure, and strengthen the bonds that exist in a community. Where chimpanzees will spend hours grooming each other’s fur, human beings will sit and chat for ages – in fact gossip makes up most of our everyday conversations – and the result is the same: a feeling of well-being and belonging.
At the same time, here's a post from the comment thread.And the whole debate is very topical this past two weeks: it's clear that gossip could've been a powerful self-defense tool against Harvey Weinstein.Sorry to say, but gossip as an anthropological study has basically petered out as a trend. One key person still working on gossip in anthropology is Nikos Beznier who recently came out with a book. But overall, gossip as a topic is no longer in trend in anthropology, not to say that it wouldn’t come back though.
Comment by Thib September 19, 2010 @ 4:21 am
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So what, as Buddhists, are we supposed to do?
Tom
Gassho, SAT, LAH.Last edited by Tom; 10-18-2017, 04:02 PM.Comment
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