How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

Recently on a Facebook discussion I found myself wanting to challenge something someone said about some people who were doing what I feel are pretty terrible things. I started writing a response but I was concerned that I was encouraging the growth of my own anger and that perhaps describing these people as despicable wouldn't be a good thing for me to do. So I didn't write anything. I didn't go into specifics because the discussion was political in nature and it can be divisive and the specifics don't really matter right now.

I'm hoping other people have been in this position as well and perhaps could offer me a little guidance.



Gassho

Sattoday/LAH

Hoseki

[Jishin]

How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

"So what will you do with a person who is convinced that the earth is flat? There is no way of reasoning with him. If it is for some reason important that he discover that the earth is round, you have got to play a game or trick on him. You tell him, “Great. The earth is flat. Let’s go and look over the edge; wouldn’t that be fun? Of course, if we are going to look over the edge of the earth, we must be very careful that we do not go around in circles or we will never get to the edge. So we must go along consistently westward, along a certain line of latitude. Then we will come to the edge of the earth.” In other words, in order to convince a flat-earther that the world is round, you have to make him act consistently on his own proposition by making him go consistently westward in search of the edge of the world. When at last, by going consistently westward, he comes back to the place where he started, he will have been convinced that the earth is at least cylindrical … What you must do is make him persist in his folly. That is the whole method of Zen: to make people become consistent, perfect egotists, and so explode the illusion of the separate ego." —Alan Watts; Buddhism the Religion of No-Religion

"If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise." —William Blake; The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Shinshou]

Thank you for this question. I'm politically active, and have no shortage of potential challenges with those on FB. I can honestly say there has never been a time that I decided to NOT post a confrontational response and regretted it. I usually forget about the whole thing in a matter of minutes. Yet many times when I do respond with an inflammatory comment, I worry about it. It crosses my mind several times throughout the day, I check FB to see if there's been a response. It seems Buddha was concerned with decreasing suffering, so for me, refraining from these conversations, while not feeding my need for self-righteousness, decreases the amount of worry I experience.

That's an excellent Alan Watts quote, Jishin.

Good luck,
Dan
SATLAH

[Kyotai]

There are times to speak up, times to stay silent. That line is different for everyone. But I would say, if the person is not right in front of me, if it is just an online opinion, it may not be worth engaging.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[Mp]

There are times to speak up, times to stay silent. That line is different for everyone. But I would say, if the person is not right in front of me, if it is just an online opinion, it may not be worth engaging.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

I agree here ... Sometimes people use social media for a selfish soap box only and not for any formal or meanful discussion. But again it is up to the person.

Sometimes something maybe brought online that moves you or upsets you and you want to engage and understand more. Maybe take that experience to someone you can connect to face to face, so that you may learn and groe in a more meaningful way then just bantering back and forth infront of a screen. But again, this is different for each and everyone of us. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Hoko]

Hi folks,

Recently on a Facebook discussion I found myself wanting to challenge something someone said about some people who were doing what I feel are pretty terrible things. I started writing a response but I was concerned that I was encouraging the growth of my own anger and that perhaps describing these people as despicable wouldn't be a good thing for me to do. So I didn't write anything. I didn't go into specifics because the discussion was political in nature and it can be divisive and the specifics don't really matter right now.

I'm hoping other people have been in this position as well and perhaps could offer me a little guidance.



Gassho

Sattoday/LAH

Hoseki

Hi Hoseki,

For me the litmus test is "will my saying something actually have a chance of changing the person's behavior or alleviate suffering?" and in my experience the "conversion rate" on the internet is abysmally low. Most people aren't looking for a discussion as much as a bully pulpit.
The chance that you will end up stoking the fires of your own suffering are pretty high though.
So if you're looking to make yourself miserable just because you wanted to say something "on principle" then feel free.
But frankly I'd rather just remain silent and cultivate gratitude for the lesson they're offering me.
Sometimes the best you can hope for is that their despicable behavior will serve as a cautionary tale.

The only times I've ever had any luck has been with a polite appeal to charity or kindness and even those are often met with suspicion.
There's a saying: "don't feed the trolls" and it's good advice as many folks on social media are just slavering for an opportunity to exchange blows with a willing interlocutor. I try not to take the bait.

The good news is that people rarely act in real life like their internet personalities so there's that.

Anyway, sorry for what you're obviously dealing with and I hope you just treat their misbehavior the way you treat thoughts in zazen viz. acknowledge it and don't get involved.

Gassho,
Hoko
#SatToday
LAH

[Zenmei]

There are times to speak up and times to remain silent, and on Facebook it is always time to remain silent. No one has ever thoughtfully considered a political Facebook post and changed their opinion. It's just fools yelling at each other. I say this as one of those fools. I got caught up in the last US election like so many of us did, and after it was over I came to realize that it was all wasted energy. I don't think one thing I said had any positive impact at all. Circumstances have dragged me back into Facebook again, but I think we'd all be better off if we just left it alone.

Gassho, Zenmei. St

[Jundo]

My rule of thumb is that one might offer constructive and needed criticism, but should avoid anger. We also remember that peoples' action may be despicable (driven by greed anger and divisive thinking), but not the people themselves. Be civil and polite even in offering a strong opinion, something easily forgotten in this day and age of online anger and name calling.

Sometimes with my teenage, I seem angry but try to avoid being actually angry. It is not always easy.

Gassho,

J

SatTodayLAH

[aprapti]

There are times to speak up and times to remain silent, and on Facebook it is always time to remain silent. No one has ever thoughtfully considered a political Facebook post and changed their opinion. It's just fools yelling at each other. I say this as one of those fools. I got caught up in the last US election like so many of us did, and after it was over I came to realize that it was all wasted energy. I don't think one thing I said had any positive impact at all. Circumstances have dragged me back into Facebook again, but I think we'd all be better off if we just left it alone.

Gassho, Zenmei. St

What i love of Fb is, you can write a very heavy comment and than not send it.. In writing what you want you got rid of it and by not sending it nobody is got hurt.


Coos

[Tairin]

I can't be bothered arguing with someone either online or in person. A reasonable discussion with friends is one thing as there is a sense of mutual appreciation for different points of view amongst friends. I'd rather let the way I lead my life and conduct myself on a day-to-day basis speak for my beliefs and opinions.

FWIW... I don't subscribe to any social media other than LinkedIn and that is for purely professional connections.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

[Eishuu]

I use social media and I share political things I feel strongly about often but in the spirit of respecting other people's point's of view and beliefs.

I don't tend to write comments that could start arguments on other people's posts as I have found people can be rather unguarded when it comes to anger and hurtful comments on social media. I used to state my opinion but would often end up angry and upset by the interchanges. I often feel the urge to respond but usually stop myself now. I sometimes do what aprapti mentions - type something and but not post it. It's quite therapeutic!

I might write something positive coming from a place of hope and support for someone or something. That can result in a nice sense of shared feelings and values with people, but can also often attrack arguments. If that happens I just ignore it. I avoid arguments with strangers. It feels like a waste of energy. And if it is coming from a place of anger writing it down usually makes me more angry. I donate to causes, sign petitions, and have discussions with friends instead.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today/LAH

[Jishin]

How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

Arguing is just a form of communication. Judging the form is tricky. If it is benign, then argue argue and argue some more. Then cheek kisses x 3 on the way out the door as certain romantic or other cultures do. Or law students argue for the sake of arguing to hone in their skills. Or professionals argue to advance knowledge and then go for beer after work. Face Book people may be doing the same. I know I do it. Jundo argues all the time but very tactfully as a teaching tool. You say form and he says emptiness. You say emptiness and he says form. Someone says form and someone else says emptiness he says the middle way. It's just talk. Intent is what is important. Chop wood and carry water (not carry worry). That's all.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Suuko]

The truth will eventually come out. As Buddha said, you can show people the way but it's up to them to walk it. I'll leave you with this.

A beautiful girl in the village was pregnant. Her angry parents demanded to know who was the father. At first resistant to confess, the anxious and embarrassed girl finally pointed to Hakuin, the Zen master whom everyone previously revered for living such a pure life. When the outraged parents confronted Hakuin with their daughter's accusation, he simply replied "Is that so?"

When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. "Is that so?" Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child.

For many months he took very good care of the child until the daughter could no longer withstand the lie she had told. She confessed that the real father was a young man in the village whom she had tried to protect. The parents immediately went to Hakuin to see if he would return the baby. With profuse apologies they explained what had happened. "Is that so?" Hakuin said as he handed them the child.

[Jishin]

How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

The truth is that truth is already here. It's always truth. There are true truths and half truths. There are true lies and true half lies. It's 100% true all the time. No escaping it. No where to look for truth except now. Now is the time where truths lies and there is not one thing missing from now. Thus truth contains it all. That's all.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

... Jundo argues all the time but very tactfully as a teaching tool. You say form and he says emptiness. You say emptiness and he says form. Someone says form and someone else says emptiness he says the middle way. ...

Oh, you have me figured out!

A beautiful girl in the village was pregnant. Her angry parents demanded to know who was the father. At first resistant to confess, the anxious and embarrassed girl finally pointed to Hakuin, the Zen master whom everyone previously revered for living such a pure life. When the outraged parents confronted Hakuin with their daughter's accusation, he simply replied "Is that so?"

When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. "Is that so?" Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child.

For many months he took very good care of the child until the daughter could no longer withstand the lie she had told. She confessed that the real father was a young man in the village whom she had tried to protect. The parents immediately went to Hakuin to see if he would return the baby. With profuse apologies they explained what had happened. "Is that so?" Hakuin said as he handed them the child.

Oh, that is from all evidence, an apocryphal, made-up story. If it were me, I would have said "heck no" and demanded a blood test! (I am all in favor of adoption though, and have two adopted kids in my house. But, nothing wrong with speaking up when there is something to say). It is best not to be overly concerned with one's reputation, but also no reason to let a lie or incorrect claim go uncovered. The story seems to have originated with a legend about the Buddha, but in that story, they used the magical version of a blood test ...

Dhammapada Verse 176

The Buddha was then expounding the Dhamma to a congregation of bhikkhus and laymen. Seeing him teaching on the platform, she [Cincamanavika] accused the Buddha thus: "O you big Samana! You only preach to others. I am now pregnant by you, yet you do nothing for my confinement. You only know how to enjoy your self!" The Buddha stopped preaching for a while and said to her, "Sister, only you and I know whether you are speaking the truth or not," and Cincamanavika replied, "Yes, you are right, how can others know what only you and I know?"

At that instant, Sakka, king of the devas, became aware of the trouble being brewed at the Jetavana monastery, so he sent four of his devas in the form of young rats. The four rats got under the clothes of Cincamanavika and bit off the strings that fastened the wooden plank round her stomach. As the strings broke, the wooden plank dropped, cutting off the front part of her feet. Thus, the deception of Cincamanavika was uncovered, and many from the crowd cried out in anger, "Oh you wicked woman! A liar and a cheat! How dare you accuse our noble Teacher!" Some of them spat on her and drove her out. She ran as fast as she could, and when she had gone some distance the earth cracked and fissured and she was swallowed up.

The next day, while the bhikkhus were talking about Cincamanavika, the Buddha came to them and said. "Bhikkhu;, one who is not afraid to tell lies, and who does not care what happens in the future existence, will not hesitate to do any evil."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 176: For one who transgresses the Truth, and is given to lying, and who is unconcerned with the life hereafter, there is no evil that he dare not do.

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp....php?verse=176

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH