Tying Up Threads

[Charles]

Re: Tying Up Threads

Usually, in our Zen practice, we advice folks to get out of philosophical debating and postulating (as nice as your ideas are) ... and SIMPLIFY. Drop the excess words, no matter how lovely.

Fair enough.

So, my point is very simple: I drop all idea of either belief or doubt, agnosticism or atheism, god or no god, buddha or no buddha ... and I chop wood and fetch water. In other word, I have a life, so I live life.

If there is a god/buddha/whatever, I think that living the life I received is the highest tribute I could pay thereto. And if there is no whatever, I live this life still.

That is, I think, taking the flower as just the flower.

I think a philosophy/religion like Zen Buddhism that drops all idea of either belief or doubt, affirmation, neutrality or rejection is a very unusual creed.

Definitely, and that makes sense to me. At some point we have to live and act regardless of the ideas we have. At the same time, isn't struggling with ideas also a part of life? Without all of the thinking and idea-work that people have done, we wouldn't live the way we live. For example, we wouldn't do science, we wouldn't have medicine, we wouldn't have architecture or art, etc. And all of the philosophies that human beings have developed, while they may not be the expression of absolute truth that their creators take them for, are still beautiful in their own right. They're still expressions of how different people have experienced and interpreted the world, and as such are as 'worth' looking at as any flower or anything else.

--Charles

[Mensch]

Re: Tying Up Threads

They [the philosopies] are still expressions of how different people have experienced and interpreted the world, and as such are as 'worth' looking at as any flower or anything else.

This morning I spent 15 minutes in the parking lot of a local Lidl store, just listening to the manifold marvelous sounds that a supermarket makes. I wouldn't go there to shop for a bag of Zen though.

Gassho,
Mensch

[will]

Re: Tying Up Threads

I don't want to say too much. Just a short post for now.

Isn't our life exactly what we make it? We have the choice to accept and make of whatever suffering we come in contact with.

It seems to me (from my own practice) that the sadness, and so on is really just a sense of us. Some teachers break through that sense of us by giving a choice. This is what you make it. "You" don't matter. Catering to this small self or whatever you like to call it, just seems to reinforce it even more. So sometimes I think it's good to be left out in the cold where the only responsibility for your life is you.

If we are feeling alone, or we see that the world is just bad, or we think that no one understands us or likes us. This is YOU. There is no one else that can do anything about that than you. You may cry about it, or whine about it, or go here and there to erradicate it, but in the end it is really you.

Compassion in part comes from an understanding as well. If one conquers their fears and dellusions (so to speak) they can't help but understand or see the same in others.

Zazen brings more balance, understanding and compassion about life than "YOU" could ever hope to understand. In a sense we just have to let it be.

Zazen is action. We take it off the cushion. There is actually no seperation between the cushion and the rest of our life. We objectify practice. Put it in a category. However, it never starts or begins. Wisdom sometimes (I think) cannot necessarily flower without some pain.

Ok. I don't want to say too much.

Just one more: Zazen and Zen practice can be humbling.

Gassho Will

[Jundo]

Re: Tying Up Threads

... At the same time, isn't struggling with ideas also a part of life? Without all of the thinking and idea-work that people have done, we wouldn't live the way we live. For example, we wouldn't do science, we wouldn't have medicine, we wouldn't have architecture or art, etc.

Oh, for sure! I am with you 100%.

But, as I like to say ad naseum, our Zen way is like working on several seemingly conflicting, even opposing and incongruous mental channels at once, without the least conflict or disharmony, not even two. So we have goals but drop all goals, go places while there is no place to go, choose on one 'channel' while dropping all choices on another 'channel', etc. etc. We learn to do this AT ONCE!

I have described this as being like a harmoniously balanced, multi-level schizoid personality!!

This is also an application of "thinking not thinking, i.e., non-thinking".

One key is, however, to know when we are falling too much, or exclusively, into the world of thinking, goals, likes and dislikes, etc. That is where most of the world is, the way day-to-day humans usually function in life. Don't let yourself fall too much, or exclusively, into the world of philosophy, ideas, concepts, theories, etc.

If you find yourself doing so, then you must return to "not thinking" too! SIMPLIFY!

Does that make sense? I think that if you grasp what I wrote above, so many of the Koans will spring open for you.

Gassho, Jundo (also something of an armchair philosopher)

[Jundo]

Re: Tying Up Threads

I was just reading an article about our 'will to the truth', our 'bodhi mind'. That part of us that wills us on to practice. The article is based on the chapter of Shobogenzo called "Zazenshin".

This 'bodhi' state of mind can be based on our suffering, on our unhappiness with ourselves and our sorroundings. It can arise from our selfishness, our need for betterment. Our unhappiness is a big cause of our practice itself.

Maybe, Jundo, you could say something about 'bodhi mind' when you get a chance? I don't remember the idea being discussed here, but maybe it was,

"Dharma Inquiry, Zazenshin: Acupuncture Needle of Zazen" by Shohaku Okumura is the article.

Here's the link: http://www.sanshinji.org/Fa03.shtml

Regards,

Harry.

Hi Harry,

I think the short essay by Rev. Okumura says it all, and I recommend everyone to look at it. Here is a portion:

Then what is our sickness? I think it is very clear. Shakyamuni Buddha said that we have been shot with an arrow tainted by the three poisonous states of mind. These three states are greed, anger/hatred and ignorance of the reality of our life, that is: impermanence, ego-lessness and interdependentorigination. Because of this ignorance, we think that we are independent and separate from all other beings. We grasp this as “ I” and think this is most important. To make this person powerful, important, famous, wealthy and healthy, these become the purpose of our life. And if we are successful, then we are happy like heavenly beings. And if not, we are miserable and it feels like being in hell. Because no condition stays forever, we transmigrate from one condition to another. This is the way our lives become transmigration within samsara. According to the Buddha's teachings, this is how our lives become suffering. This transmigration is actually happening moment by moment in our daily lives in this lifetime. Buddha's teaching is often called medicine and the Buddha is sometimes called “medicine master” or “great doctor”. The idea of the acupuncture needle is the same; to heal the sickness caused by the three poisonous states of mind. This is the basic meaning of this title, Zazenshin. Zazen is an acupuncture needle to heal the sickness caused by the three poisonous states of mind. And because the sickness is very inveterate and obstinate, it is very difficult to heal.

Nishijima Roshi said something similar in his "A Heart to Heart" book ...

The ‘Truth’ of ‘Will to the Truth’ is written as ‘bodai’ in Japanese, a word derived from the Sanskrit word ‘boddhi,’ which has as its original meaning ‘the Actual,’ ‘Truth,’ ‘Reality.’ Accordingly, our ‘establishing of a Will to the Truth’ means our sincere wish to know ‘Truth,’ to seek for what is and is not the ‘Real.’ Because we have little understanding of Buddhism when we first set out in its practice, we do not understand how best to engage in that practice. However, Master Dogen, through his words in such works as the Gakudoyojinshu and Shobogenzo, has shown us that the arising within of a sincere wish to know what is ‘Real’ is the starting point, the setting out point for our Buddhist practice, and thus of the highest importance.

... In his Gakudoyojinshu, a writing created to guide newcomers in the practice of Buddhism, Master Dogen stated that 'the establishment of a Will to the Truth' is the same as just to reflect intuitively that our life must be instantaneous, fully here and now, without thoughts of the past or dreams of the future. Simply being present here and now, present in this very Reality in this instant with nothing to search for, nothing to seek … is the ‘Will to the Truth.’ But at the same time, Master Dogen also stated that the arising in human beings, from various circumstances, of an earnest and sincere wish to know ‘Truth,’ to seek the real meaning of human life ….. a calling within that will not release one from that quest - as though to save one’s own head from fire ….. such is also the actual state which is the ‘establishment of a Will to the Truth.’ In such circumstances, when we concentrate our hearts upon the knowing of Truth, upon knowing the real meaning of human life ….. the other problems which we usually think of as being as important as life itself - such as fame and profit and the like - become instead, just so very unimportant in its light. Master Dogen grasped that the state of our seeing into our being in the instantaneous present can also be the kindling of the spirit of inquiry, and is a state available to anyone, possible for anyone to attain, as both the setting off point for our Buddhist practice, and an indispensable precondition for that Buddhist practice.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heart-Chat-Budd ... 984&sr=8-1

Gassho, Jundo

PS - I especially appreciated the section at the end of Rev. Okumura's essay about how Zazen can go off track if driven by poisonous states of mind ... one reason that Zazenshin is often linked to the Precepts.

[will]

Re: Tying Up Threads

I like to just say something about what started me doing Zazen and has kept me doing it really.

Mostly it was some idea that there was something wrong with me. Something that I needed to fix. Originally I wasn't good enough. This perhaps changed to an effort to change myself. Of course all along the thing that I wanted was the thing that was a hinderance to practice. Caught up in it more and more. Trying more and more to change just kept moving deeper towards dellusion, and ego. The point is you can't really change who you are. You just have to accept the fact that you can't fix it. There is nothing that you can do. When this happens, there is a breakthrough sort of. But if that is objectified, it just becomes another view of "Ok. Now I'm getting somewhere." But your really just going backwards again.

Kodo Sawaki says that "Zazen is good for nothing."

I tried so hard that my head would hurt all day long from narrowing my eyes and actually being caught up in this ego (thoughts etc.). Always thinking how to change this or that. Always thinking, thinking, thinking. Trying to stop the thinking etc. Objectifying this and that. I had such an idea about what was right and what was wrong, but it didn't improve anything at all. I continued to just be as tense, greedy, angry, irritable, paranoid, self righteous as always. So I couldn't really change anything. I just needed, partly, to let it go.

When I would read or write, it was: think, think, think. Think about just imaginary stuff and what I feel, and attachment instead the actual circumstances.

The thing is. It becomes a habit that is tough to break and you can't expect things to happen right away (from my experience). You just kind of have to notice and let things be, and open up.

Here's an example of my particular situation:

I would not be able to feel the body at all. When I would hear a sound, the back of my head and my ear would tense at the sound. At this time I would notice this, but would start thinking about it and attach to that thinking. I'd say something like "Ok. My ear is tensing, but that is just tension, and I should just let it tense. Why is it tensing so much? etc." This is not just letting things be.

In Zazen you just really have to let it be, and come back to the posture and open your eyes etc., but if you think that this will make you better than it just won't do anything.

I think each of us is really good at something in our practice. I was really good at tension, narrowing and over thinking. I guess that's why it's called practice, because each person has to find their own way. However, I think we're all pretty similiar.

Until we meet again young grasshopper. Hahaha :x

Gassho Will

[Charles]

Re: Tying Up Threads

When I would hear a sound, the back of my head and my ear would tense at the sound. At this time I would notice this, but would start thinking about it and attach to that thinking. I'd say something like "Ok. My ear is tensing, but that is just tension, and I should just let it tense. Why is it tensing so much? etc." This is not just letting things be.

Will,

Man, do I ever know what you're talking about.

In Zazen you just really have to let it be, and come back to the posture and open your eyes etc....

And for me, that's often the really hard part. If I try to stop thinking, stop tensing, etc., I just think more and tense up more. The "how" of just letting it be -- stopping without trying to stop -- is sometimes very elusive for me. It drives me nuts that the effort to stop doing something makes the thing worse. On days when I have trouble with this I find sitting to be very, very frustrating.

--Charles

[Jundo]

Re: Tying Up Threads

I like to just say something about what started me doing Zazen and has kept me doing it really.

Mostly it was some idea that there was something wrong with me. Something that I needed to fix. Originally I wasn't good enough. This perhaps changed to an effort to change myself. Of course all along the thing that I wanted was the thing that was a hinderance to practice. Caught up in it more and more.

Another very nice statement, Will. Thank you.

Of course, it is a fine line to walk. The "finely balanced, harmonious and undivided schizoid" can know the art of change without changing. So, we learn things in school, give up smoking, become better and kinder people ... all as we know there is nothing to change. Nothing in need of change. We even become more proficient Zenners by mastering the art of no art to master.

Tee hee. This Zen stuff is a hoot! :lol:

Gassho, Jundo

[Dojin]

Re: Tying Up Threads

And for me, that's often the really hard part. If I try to stop thinking, stop tensing, etc., I just think more and tense up more. The "how" of just letting it be -- stopping without trying to stop -- is sometimes very elusive for me. It drives me nuts that the effort to stop doing something makes the thing worse. On days when I have trouble with this I find sitting to be very, very frustrating.

--Charles

Charles i know exactly what you mean. i felt like that too. with time i came to find that i shouldnt try to stop thinking or stop without stopping, i should just sit. thoughts arise in my head and they pass like clouds above i know them, i see them, but i do not take notice, i do not mind.
they are just thoughts nothing more nothing less. not trying to letting go but truly letting go of thought is to accept thought and let it be but not to dwell on it or mind it.

just sitting - shikantaza
i find it is the only thing that comes close to explaining whatever it is i wish to say.
just sit nothing more nothing less.

i have said so much yet i feel i have missed the point further by speaking. too bad i cannot speak with silence in this forum
hahaha :lol: