Reading challenges

[Mujin]

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to share something, perhaps others have experienced this as well. I have read sutras, and am now reading Shobogenzo. To me, it's like reading Shakespeare. I feel I'm not up to the task, and I get frustrated with myself. It is all so far over my head. In the past, I was able to read such things as the Stoics, and Aristotle, and the like, without much issue. I'm at a bit of a loss with these writings.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

[spinnylights]

Any particular passages you're finding challenging? Maybe just one to start with? I can't really help much with anything in Sanskrit, but at least where Dogen is concerned, I know from experience that sometimes it helps to clarify matters to look at his original Middle Japanese writing. I know Song Dynasty Chinese way less well than Middle Japanese, but there have also been some passages in the Blue Cliff Record that were really obscure to me in the English translation I've been reading that I found way easier to understand looking at the original text, just with a bit of beginner's grammar knowledge and a good dictionary. Translation is hard, and what made sense to the translator might not fit into your own mental models as effectively. Not to say that anything of this approach will necessarily help you, but even if not, other people in this community are way more knowledgeable than I am, doubtless, and all working together I'm sure we can help. It's probably also worth noting that there's not necessarily "one true way" to interpret these kinds of texts; people have debated for centuries over the right ways to interpret them, and that's a lively discussion we can all carry on, you included.

[Bion]

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to share something, perhaps others have experienced this as well. I have read sutras, and am now reading Shobogenzo. To me, it's like reading Shakespeare. I feel I'm not up to the task, and I get frustrated with myself. It is all so far over my head. In the past, I was able to read such things as the Stoics, and Aristotle, and the like, without much issue. I'm at a bit of a loss with these writings.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

You are not alone. Some translations are easier to read than others, but ultimately, Dogen Zenji's writing is challenging.
What translation are you using?

gassho
sat lah

[Shujin]

In the past, I was able to read such things as the Stoics, and Aristotle, and the like, without much issue.

I think this is due, at least in part, to the fact that we have a cultural and historical background in Greek and Latin classics. I find Dogen much easier to read after laying a foundation in Buddhist history, sutras, and koan study. When I could see that Dogen's source material wasn't abstract or random, it helped me to get a handle on what he's trying to say. Jundo and Nishijima Roshi also have helpful approaches to reading Dogen. Jundo may chime in, but you'll have to look to Nishijima's books for guidance.

Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

[Jundo]

I actually wrote a book on "how to read Dogen."

Here is the thing: It is not to be read mostly (in his wilder stuff) as straight discourse, but more like jazz music riffing wildly on a standard tune, or Picasso taking a table apart and putting it back again. I have a short version of the explanation here:

~~~

Really gettin' DOGEN'S WILD SOUND is a lot like gettin' THIS WILD SOUND ...

(Please give a listen, and keep it playing while you read the rest of this post)
.

I've described Dogen as a JHANA JAZZ MAN-POET, riffing and free expressing-reexpressing-bending-straightening-unbinding-releasing the 'standard tunes' of the Sutras and Koans. The untrained ear can't make head or tail of it, complex rhythms, notes flying, wild tempo ...

Above is what John Coltrane did-undid-diddled-redid, for example, with "MY FAVORITE THINGS", that really "squaresville" (though lovely in its own way) tune that you may recall being chirped by Julie Andrews in THE SOUND OF MUSIC (a great story)! For that reason, a familiarity with the original 'standards' of the American songbook helps a lot in getting where Coltrane was coming from and going to here. Likewise, a good grounding in traditional Buddhist, Mahayana and Zen philosophy and perspectives is vital to getting what Dogen is up to. But Dogen, Master of the WordJazz expression of the Wordless, then takes off bending and re-enlivening those "standard tunes" in ways felt in the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Dogen, for example, frequently re-wild-ed and bent up passages from the already wild and bent Lotus Sutra into something even more bent-iferous and wildacios! Sometimes with Dogen, one can make out clearly the "original melody" he is working with ... a Sutra passage, a Poem, an Old Koan ... and sometimes barely so, for it is not always the "point" he is trying to make through reasoned words, but "the sound, man, the feeling of the music". Dogen and Coltrane make their own musical expression the same but different from the 'standards' that the playful playing is playing upon ... expressing Timeless Old Truths in ways never expressed before ... making Timeless New Truths in the process ... but one also should not forget that that "standard" tune is in there too, and keeps popping up as the theme

The Shobogenzo, for example, is a rather thick and thorny maze to most readers. But once Dogen's basic ways of expression are understood, one can read the entirety with a bit more ease ... though never easy, mind you, as Dogen (like Coltrane) may often have sometimes let the notes and feeling lead him where they would, and may not have been always himself quite sure where the music was taking him -- or what he himself "meant"! Nonetheless, each certainly knew what he "meant" cause of the meaning of the feelings felt!

~~~~

Longer version here, with examples ...

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/teacher-talks-tips/teacher-talks-tips-aa/talks-tips-and-topics-by-jundo/2990-how-to-read-dogen#post2990

Oh, and my book, by the way ...

https://wisdomexperience.org/product/the-zen-masters-dance/

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

I give this example of Dogen's game in my book ...

~~~~

Dogen, for example, frequently wilded and re-wilded passages from the already fantastically wild “Lotus Sutra” into something even more wild-tastical! In one such example, he worked from a famous scene of that Sutra in which a stupa (a traditional pavilion or tower containing the ashes or other relics and treasures of a Buddha or other great Ancestor), in this case thousands of kilometers tall, appears from the ground and rests in the air. Buddha Shakyamuni sees that another Buddha (named Abundant Treasures) is sitting inside, and the two Buddhas share a seat within the tower and preach together. All this is depicted in the Sutra as occurring in the sky over Vulture Peak, the sacred site in India said to be where the Lotus Sutra was being preached (a preaching of the Sutra that amazingly includes, in a logical loop, this very scene of the Sutra being preached). It is already a pretty wild vision before Dogen even sets to work on it. The Lotus Sutra describes the sacred happening like this:

At that time, before the Buddha, a Stupa of the Seven Treasures [gold, silver, pearl, etc.], five hundred yojanas in height, and two hundred and fifty yojanas in length and breadth, sprang out from the earth and abode in the sky… When that Buddha [Abundant Treasures] was practicing the Bodhisattva way in the past, he had made a great vow: “After I have realized [the state of] Buddha and died, if in the lands of the ten directions there is any place where the Lotus Sutra is preached, my Stupa shall spring up and appear before that place so that I may hear the Sutra.”

In a Shobogenzo essay called Hokke-Ten-Hokke (“The Flower of Dharma Turns the Flower of Dharma”), Dogen takes this scene, flips it around, stirs it up, and brings it home to his fans. The expression “turning the flower of Dharma” can mean a Buddha’s preaching of the Dharma, the Buddhist Truth, and it also can mean that the whole beautiful universe is like a flower turning. At the end, the reference to “non-thinking” (hi-shiryo) is the same one that Dogen often employs to describe the state of mind in Zazen which is “thinking-not-thinking” that is “non-thinking”:

[Dogen says:] There is turning the Flower of Dharma in the presence “before the Buddha” of a “Treasure Stupa,” whose “height is five hundred yojanas.” There is turning the Flower of Dharma in the “Buddha sitting inside the Stupa,” whose extent is “two hundred and fifty yojanas.” There is turning the Flower of Dharma in springing out from the earth and abiding in the earth, [in which state] mind is without restriction and matter is without restriction. There is turning the Flower of Dharma in springing out from the sky and abiding in the earth, which is restricted by the eyes and restricted by the body. Vulture Peak exists inside the Stupa, and the Treasure Stupa exists on Vulture Peak. The Treasure Stupa is a Treasure Stupa in space, and space makes space for the Treasure Stupa. The eternal Buddha inside the Stupa takes his seat alongside the Buddha of Vulture Peak, and the Buddha of Vulture Peak experiences the state of experience as the Buddha inside the stupa. When the Buddha of Vulture Peak enters the state of experience inside the Stupa, while object and subject on Vulture Peak [remain] just as they are, he enters into the turning of the Flower of Dharma. […] “Inside the stupa,” “before the Buddha,” “the Treasure Stupa,” and “space” are not of Vulture Peak; they are not of the world of Dharma; they are not a halfway stage; and they are not of the whole world. Nor are they concerned with only a “concrete place in the Dharma.” They are simply “non-thinking.” (based upon the Nishijima-Cross translation)

The sacred, all so thoroughly interconnected and inter-flowing, every bit pouring in and out of every bit, is the turning of the flower of the Buddha’s teaching, the whole universe turning, sometimes experienced in the world of restrictions and sometimes unrestricted, which is all the “non-thinking” of Zazen!

Dig it!

.

[Mujin]

You are not alone. Some translations are easier to read than others, but ultimately, Dogen Zenji's writing is challenging.
What translation are you using?

gassho
sat lah

I am reading the Nishijima/Cross translation

[Bion]

I am reading the Nishijima/Cross translation

Sometimes, comparing different translations can help quite a bit, as you can get clarity on certain words and expressions. You may want to try looking at the Tanahashi translations, too. Maybe the Soto Zen Text Project one, if you have access to it. For me, that's useful, and I rely on this approach always.

gassho
sat lah

[spinnylights]

Following from what Jundo wrote here (which I really like—I enjoyed the music a lot too ), one of the sections I think of often from the Shoubougenzou is Dogen's essay "Ikka Myouju" (『一顆明珠』), often translated as "One Bright Pearl" (it can also be read as "A Single Clear Jewel" or "One Sparkling Orb" etc.; here I call it "A Single Clear Orb" which I think conveys the image and feeling of it well to an English speaker as Dogen treats it, but all of these translations are correct in their own ways). Although I think you can get a lot out of the essay just by reading it directly, it concerns an idea that has a long history in Buddhist literature, and if you're finding the text more opaque than you might hope from a discussion of something perfectly clear, knowing about some of the atmosphere Dogen was writing within might help.

The title "Ikka Myouju" refers to a single completely transparent and flawless orb-shaped jewel that can also be described as "bright", "glowing", or "glittering". This is a common image in many Chinese and Japanese texts that well predate Dogen, in the form here of "明珠" (myouju) meaning "clear" or "bright" jewel as well as "寶珠" (houju) meaning "precious" or "priceless" jewel (also used as an abbreviation for "如意寶珠", nyoihouju, meaning "precious wish-fulfilling jewel", a jewel that can satisfy any desire) and "摩尼珠" (maniju) meaning "mani jewel" (with "mani" being Sanskrit for "jewel", "pearl", or "precious bead").

As the last term suggests, it originates in Sanskrit texts, including the Lotus Sutra. In the Lotus Sutra, it primarily features in the "Jewel in the Robe" parable and in the context of the priceless bright jewel in the topknot of a "wheel-turning king", a king who rules the whole world and propagates the Dharma throughout. (I'm working from the Watson translation of the Lotus Sutra in relating this, which is based on the 406 A.D. Chinese version by Kumārajīva.)

The "Jewel in the Robe" parable concerns a man who goes to a very rich friend's house while drunk and falls asleep there. His friend, who has to go out on business, sews a priceless jewel into the hem of the sleeping man's robe before he leaves. The man later wakes, and, finding himself alone in the house, goes out and journeys all over trying to provide for himself. He strives much and gains little, leading a hard-scrabble existence. One day, he meets his wealthy friend on the road by chance. His friend, surprised by the hardships the man is enduring, tells him that all his striving for food and clothing is rather absurd—he must not have realized that there is a precious jewel sown into his robe that is worth so much he could exchange it for all the goods he would ever need in his life.

The Lotus Sutra states that the man is like an arhat who believes he has gained extinction, and, finding it difficult to provide for his livelihood, gets by on what little he can. It says the rich friend is like the Buddha, who, having provided the arhat with the seeds of genuinely boundless understanding, rebukes him for believing he has gained true extinction when today he really has only a small portion of nirvana, yet assures him that he will in time indeed gain true extinction as the Buddha has imparted the means to him already.

As for the "wheel-turning king", the Lotus Sutra relates that such a king has a bright clear jewel in his topknot which is his most precious posession. It is so precious to him that he would give away anything in his entire kingdom before he would part with it. This is because everything else in his kingdom is replaceable, but the jewel in his topknot is unique, and his followers would fall into immense despair if he were to give it away. In his efforts to conquer the territories of all the cruel and petty tyrants around him, he rewards his forces with countless treasures, but still not the bright clear jewel. Nevertheless, if among his soldiers he encounters one of genuinely superlative distinction, he will give that soldier the bright clear jewel.

The Lotus Sutra states that the wheel-turning king is like the Buddha, the jewel is like the Lotus Sutra, and the other treasures the king gives are like other sutras. It asserts that the Buddha has employed many skillful means to bring people to understanding all over the world, and that once they have matured greatly through these teachings, he saves the Lotus Sutra for last.

These give a couple examples of the many ways this concept is employed. Dogen, in "Ikka Myouju", provides yet another example he attributes to the Tang dynasty monk Xuansha (玄沙). who studied under Xuefeng (雪峰), dharma heir of Deshan Xuanjian (德山宣鑒) (the protagonists of the koans "Xuefeng's Grain of Rice" and "Deshan Carrying His Bundle" respectively, and also featuring in many other well-known anecdotes relayed by Yuanwu Keqin in the Blue Cliff Record among other sources). The quote from Xuansha that Dogen uses as his jumping-off point in "Ikka Myouju" is "尽十方世界、是一顆明珠" ("The whole world to the ends of all the ten directions is but a single clear orb"). (Translations from the Shoubougenzou are my own.)

Dogen begins this discussion, after giving a brief biography of Xuansha, by relaying the following anecdote about him:

After Xuansha had finally grasped the Way, he often pointed something out to people. He would say, "The whole world to the ends of all the ten directions is but a single clear orb."

One day, in a gathering of monks, an abbot said to him, "You've conveyed to us that the whole world to the ends of all the ten directions is but a single clear orb. How might the assembly comprehend this?"

The master replied, "The whole world, to the ends of all the ten directions—this is but a single clear orb. Consider: what can we do with this assembly?"

The next day, he put another question to the abbot. "The whole world, to the ends of all the ten directions, is but a single clear orb. Consider: what can you do to assemble this?"

The abbot replied, "The whole world to the ends of all the ten directions is but a single clear orb…what can we do with this assembly?"

Said the master, "With this understanding, in the midst of the ogre's defiled cave of ignorance, you've found a way to get by, haven't you?"

Dogen then expounds:

Xuansha set us on the path of "The whole world to the ends of all the ten directions is but a single clear orb." This teaching tells us that the whole world, to the ends of all the ten directions, is neither vast nor minute, is not even-handed, is neither fluttering with life nor a place where fleeting lives go round and round. In fact, since it is not a place where birth and death come and go, it is a place where birth and death come and go. As a result of all this, the days gone by are leaving us yet, and the days to come are still coming. However deeply people might peer into this, how could those who perceive the world in fragments ever apprehend it in full?

Just as Jundo describes, he goes on to play many riffs on this idea, weaving in variations on the melodies others have played on it before him. For example, he says later on:

At this very moment, the clear orb is fixed in empty space, and is fixed into the hem of a robe; it lies before your eyes, and lies beneath your topknot; every last thing to the ends of all the ten directions of the entire world is but a single clear orb. Having had it sewn into your clothes, you musn't try to hang it on their surface. Having had it placed down under your topknot, don't try to play at wearing it in your hair. A good friend who gives you the orb when you're drunk—such a good friend will give the orb to you without fail. When the orb is shattered into fragments, you are, without fail, drunk.

At the end, he carries us out with:

How could you not adore it, this clear sparkling jewel, the colorful light that glitters within being all that exists? In all the rays and lines of the boundless colors of its gleaming light is all of the merit to be found, to the ends of all the ten directions of the whole world. Who could ever snatch it away? Since there is no one who will go to the market and smash it with a brick, don't worry yourself about what may or may not fall under cause and effect in our universe. Being intrinsically unclouded from tip to tail, it is before your eyes, and it is your eyes.

Since there is nothing apart from it, not even you and I, what sort of thing is this clear orb, and what sort of thing is this clear orb not, you might ask yourself a hundred times or not ask yourself a hundred times—but if you thus get caught up in the entangling weeds of its bright light, the dharma path of Xuansha may yet lead you to understand that your mind and body are nothing but the clear orb itself, and if you are thus enlightened, knowing that your mind does not reside within you, it being the clear orb that destroys every last thing, you will not trouble yourself with picking and choosing what it may or may not be. Even if you have such troubles, the clear orb is without a single flaw, so if in its flawlessness you fail to be roused and don't get any sense of it at all, at the exact moment that you fall back within the ogre's defiled cave of ignorance, right there in the heart of it you'll find a single clear orb.

[Houzan]

I can emphasize with that. It was like this for me as well when I first started to read Shobogenzo. Then I stopped thinking that I need to read more “basic teachings” first. I have now read 75 of the books on the Treeleaf reading list, including most of the “heavy” books. It did not become significantly easier for me. I now think of Shobogenzo as a collection of koans and read it like I would listen to jazz, like Jundo recommends. And I love Shobogenzo even more now.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

[Hoshuku]

I completely empathize with your experience. I don’t generally respond to jazz, poetry or improvisation in any way, so I’ve generally avoided the more philosophical Dogen. My time will come when I cannot ignore him any longer.

Bows
Hoshuku
Satlah

[Jundo]

I can emphasize with that. It was like this for me as well when I first started to read Shobogenzo. Then I stopped thinking that I need to read more “basic teachings” first. I have now read 75 of the books on the Treeleaf reading list, including most of the “heavy” books. It did not become significantly easier for me. I now think of Shobogenzo as a collection of koans and read it like I would listen to jazz, like Jundo recommends. And I love Shobogenzo even more now.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

It is really helpful to know basic Buddhist and Mahayana notions and teachings when diving into Shobogenzo. I will give an example. I am going to pull a sentence or three from Shobogenzo almost at random, with my eyes closed ...

Great wise friends are buddhas and ancestors; we should always devotedly serve at their towel and flask. This being the case, bringing the tea, making the tea — the essence of mind appeared, the spiritual powers appeared; bringing the basin of water and pouring the water, he did not move the object, he knew about it from down there. These are not just studying the essence of the mind, of the buddhas and ancestors; they are encountering one or two buddhas and ancestors within the essence of mind. (From "Shobobenzo-Dharani, chosen at random")

Huh? What?

It becomes a little clearer when we know that "Great wise friends" means great teachers who are "friends along the way" of Zen practice, and we should honor and serve them (like their servant bearing drinking flask and towels at the ready.) "Bringing the tea, making the tea" and "bringing the basin of water" also an allusion to famous stories of monks serving their masters by bringing tea or bringing them water. So, Dogen conveys that the essence of (Buddha) mind, and true mystical powers, are to be found right in simple acts of devotion and service to one's teacher. "He did not move the object, he knew about it from down there" is a reference to one of the famous stories, which includes the lines ...

Yang brought him a basin of water and a hand towel. Dawei washed his face.
As the Master finished washing his face and sat down, Xiangyan came in.
The Master said, “Master Ji and I just did one surpassing spiritual power. It wasn’t like the little stuff”
Yan said, “I was down there; I know all about it.” ( 在 下面 了 了 得 知。)
The Master said, “Try saying something.”
Xiangyan went and made a bowl of tea.

So, maybe this means that, even in the actions of bringing tea and basins in service, there is unmoving stillness. This "down there, I know all about it" is not so clear, but may be something like saying, "been there, done that, really got down to doing it, so I get it." True "mystical powers" are not levitating or ESP (mere little, cheap mystical powers), but actually the simple acts like making tea. Doing such mystical unmoving acts is not just book learning "studying the essence of [Buddha] mind," but actually bringing Buddhas to life as this essence of mind in the action. In student serving tea to master, one or two Buddhas meet each other as one.

Something like that.

(The SZTP translation with its marvelous footnoting is source of some of the above, by the way).

So, ya gotta know where Dogen is coming from, the material he is working from, his word play and what he is probably trying to say in that word play.

It is not so easy, but always worth the journey.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Houzan]

It is really helpful to know basic Buddhist and Mahayana notions and teachings when diving into Shobogenzo. I will give an example. I am going to pull a sentence or three from Shobogenzo almost at random, with my eyes closed ...

Great wise friends are buddhas and ancestors; we should always devotedly serve at their towel and flask. This being the case, bringing the tea, making the tea — the essence of mind appeared, the spiritual powers appeared; bringing the basin of water and pouring the water, he did not move the object, he knew about it from down there. These are not just studying the essence of the mind, of the buddhas and ancestors; they are encountering one or two buddhas and ancestors within the essence of mind. (From "Shobobenzo-Dharani, chosen at random")

Huh? What?

It becomes a little clearer when we know that "Great wise friends" means great teachers who are "friends along the way" of Zen practice, and we should honor and serve them (like their servant bearing drinking flask and towels at the ready.) "Bringing the tea, making the tea" and "bringing the basin of water" also an allusion to famous stories of monks serving their masters by bringing tea or bringing them water. So, Dogen conveys that the essence of (Buddha) mind, and true mystical powers, are to be found right in simple acts of devotion and service to one's teacher. "He did not move the object, he knew about it from down there" is a reference to one of the famous stories, which includes the lines ...

Yang brought him a basin of water and a hand towel. Dawei washed his face.
As the Master finished washing his face and sat down, Xiangyan came in.
The Master said, “Master Ji and I just did one surpassing spiritual power. It wasn’t like the little stuff”
Yan said, “I was down there; I know all about it.” ( 在 下面 了 了 得 知。)
The Master said, “Try saying something.”
Xiangyan went and made a bowl of tea.

So, maybe this means that, even in the actions of bringing tea and basins in service, there is unmoving stillness. This "down there, I know all about it" is not so clear, but may be something like saying, "been there, done that, really got down to doing it, so I get it." True "mystical powers" are not levitating or ESP (mere little, cheap mystical powers), but actually the simple acts like making tea. Doing such mystical unmoving acts is not just book learning "studying the essence of [Buddha] mind," but actually bringing Buddhas to life as this essence of mind in the action. In student serving tea to master, one or two Buddhas meet each other as one.

Something like that.

(The SZTP translation with its marvelous footnoting is source of some of the above, by the way).

So, ya gotta know where Dogen is coming from, the material he is working from, his word play and what he is probably trying to say in that word play.

It is not so easy, but always worth the journey.

Gassho, J
stlah

Thank you, Jundo. It surely became easier and it was not my intention to suggest that preparations are useless. The point I was trying to make is that it does still not read like the stoics, Aristotle, or any of the sutras for me, even after going through some of the «basic» studies.

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah