A 'form'al request

[Onsho]

Greetings.
I would love to have the forms dialed in during Zazenkai. The ceremony flows so beautifully between Jundo and the ino, but the rest of us seem out of sync when its time to put our hands in gassho and bow at the beginning and end of the ceremony. I would love to see the rest of us flowing in crisp, intentional, standardized unison and flow effortlessly within the dance. Our songbook has the ques for the ino, I think this could be as simple as adding a few symbols to show hands up, hands down and bow. Are the forms different between the priests and practitioners when attending?

Im curious what other folks think of this.
I'm more than happy to have things remain as they are.

Gassho,
Onsho
satlah

[Bion]

Greetings.
I would love to have the forms dialed in during Zazenkai. The ceremony flows so beautifully between Jundo and the ino, but the rest of us seem out of sync when its time to put our hands in gassho and bow at the beginning and end of the ceremony. I would love to see the rest of us flowing in crisp, intentional, standardized unison and flow effortlessly within the dance. Our songbook has the ques for the ino, I think this could be as simple as adding a few symbols to show hands up, hands down and bow. Are the forms different between the priests and practitioners when attending?

Im curious what other folks think of this.
I'm more than happy to have things remain as they are.

Gassho,
Onsho
satlah

Unsui and lay practitioners have the same forms, and as a matter of fact, ino would bow in the same places. Only Doshi has different movements.

gassho
sat lah

[Tensei]

Hi Onsho,

When preparing to attend my first zazenkai, I watched Jundo's "When to Bow During Zazenkai," and combed through some of the written documents (such as Treeleaf Zendo Forms and Etiquette) to try to keep track of when to bow. I ended up making a little 'cheat sheet' in my service book - I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but I found it helpful.

As for synchronization and 'keeping time with the dance,' I wonder how much internet connection, speed and lag impacts people's timing. Sometimes my internet takes a snooze in the middle of Zazenkai and everyone turns into stop-motion robots.

Gassho,
Tensei
satlah

[Bion]

Hi Onsho,

When preparing to attend my first zazenkai, I watched Jundo's "When to Bow During Zazenkai," and combed through some of the written documents (such as Treeleaf Zendo Forms and Etiquette) to try to keep track of when to bow. I ended up making a little 'cheat sheet' in my service book - I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but I found it helpful.

As for synchronization and 'keeping time with the dance,' I wonder how much internet connection, speed and lag impacts people's timing. Sometimes my internet takes a snooze in the middle of Zazenkai and everyone turns into stop-motion robots.

Gassho,
Tensei
satlah

Nice!!!!

Gassho
sat lah

[Tenryu]

As for synchronization and 'keeping time with the dance,' I wonder how much internet connection, speed and lag impacts people's timing. Sometimes my internet takes a snooze in the middle of Zazenkai and everyone turns into stop-motion robots.

And sometimes, after a micro-freeze, the Ino suddenly accelerates to warp speed.
I do like Onsho's idea, but I think that due to lag the synchronization will always remain somewhat off.
That doesn't mean we can't keep trying.

Gasshō,
Tenryū
sat&lah

[Jundo]

Given the nature of our Sangha, we have to depend mostly on "follow the group" ... Namely, bow when the other people who look like they know what they are doing bow! Frankly, having attended countless Zazenkai at so many places in America, Europe and even Japan, I can say that it is not just us. Priests in a training monastery may be honed into military regimentation, but lay folks tend to be more inconsistent. Procedures vary place to place even in the same Lineage. Even experienced lay folks develop their own unique personal styles, and even those may change week to week!

Short of buzzers that go off when someone bows at the wrong time, I am not sure what can be done.

We do include these videos with every Zazenkai each and every week, and they set out the basic procedure. I hope folks will study them.

For some more information about Zendo etiquette at Treeleaf and to help you be more comfortable with joining the Zoom room, please have a look here:
.

ZENDO ETIQUETTE

...
.
PS - There is no "wrong" or "right" in Zazen ... yet here is a little explanation of the "right" times to bow (A koan) ...
.

The other video I mention on Zendo decorum is this one, from our "Always Beginners" video Series:
.

Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (12) - Basic Zendo Decorum At Home
(LINK)

I also recommend a little Talk on why small rituals and procedures are so cherished in the Zendo:
.

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Small Things in the Zendo
(LINK)

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Koriki]

I think what Onsho is getting at is when to be in Gassho during the ceremony. Here's what is said in the Treeleaf Zendo Forms and Etiquette document-

Service (Ceremony)
If there is a ceremony, it will be verbally announced and chant books will be provided in advance. For ceremony, usually stand in Gassho (with palms joined). A roll down of the hand bell (Inkin) announces a sequence of three floor prostrations, marked by hits of the bowl bell, but there can be substituted standing bows with hands in Gassho, or any other sincere action for bows or whatever your body allows you to do. Choose one of the practitioners or priests in the meeting as a reference for what and when to do, but do not follow the bows or movements of the officiant priest.

So, according to that reference it seems that we should be in Gassho the entire ceremony except when doing prostrations. However, Bion has pointed out previously in a different context that we tend to over-Gassho here at TreeLeaf. Which is a good point as that position is a challenge for some of us to hold for long periods, so it would be nice to only be in Gassho when necessary. And, as Onsho suggested, a little Gassho symbol or equivalent in the chant book might help us synchronize. I'm fine with all Gassho or some other option. It's a good question.

Gassho,
Koriki
s@lah

[Onki]

Hi Onsho,

When preparing to attend my first zazenkai, I watched Jundo's "When to Bow During Zazenkai," and combed through some of the written documents (such as Treeleaf Zendo Forms and Etiquette) to try to keep track of when to bow. I ended up making a little 'cheat sheet' in my service book - I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but I found it helpful.

As for synchronization and 'keeping time with the dance,' I wonder how much internet connection, speed and lag impacts people's timing. Sometimes my internet takes a snooze in the middle of Zazenkai and everyone turns into stop-motion robots.

Gassho,
Tensei
satlah

This is awesome!

Gasshō,

On

sat/lah